Am I ready for 15/30?

I play pretty much 4/8 exclusively. I've become pretty good at studying players and paying attention. The problem is that most of the time my opponents play doesn't make sense. They're crazy. It's not possible to know where they're coming from. It even hurts the brain to try and follow their play -- I mean it's painful and taxing to try to make rational sense out of irrational behavior. So many times players will catch runner runner to make two pair when they shouldn't have been in the hand to begin with - like with K6o.


I wish I had some examples, but I don't. What do you pros think?


I've played 15/30 once for about 2 hours - I held my own and I could follow the play and it made sense. The game I was in even had one loosey goosey chaser who loved to play middle cards at anytime no matter how many people were in or what position she had. And another gentlemen who seemed to love to play low cards. But if I can identify these characters and at least make educated plays against them, should I play at this level?


Or am I fooling myself into thinking I can make the jump? Any advice would be very helpful.


Thanks,


-Michael

If you have to ask the question then that probably means that you aren't ready. The best thing to do is make sure you study a lot, play extremely well (those two go hand in hand really), have complete discipline and make sure that you choose good games. Moving up to a particular limit isn't always difficult if your competition isn't very tough and you have the proper bankroll. I have played in plenty of 15-30 games that are easy or extremely easy to beat, but I have also seen them full of tight agressive players at times too. Notice I said I have SEEN these games (tough games)- don't make the mistake of playing in these types of games, when I find a game like this I simply pass it up. You can find games that are as easy as your 4-8 games if you are selective enough, at limits up to 20-40.

"I've become pretty good at studying players and paying attention. The problem is that most of the time my opponents play doesn't make sense. They're crazy. It's not possible to know where they're coming from."


If the guy hits runner-runner two-pair with his K-6, and raises your pocket aces on the river, and you know he has you beat because your studying-of-players reveals that he would not raise the river with one pair, and because of how he raised, but you just have to see his hand in order to confirm that he is "crazy," you just lost your edge.


With all the millions that go into sports betting and lotteries and race tracks and roulette and everything else, why is it such a surprise that people would gamble at a poker table? The sign on the door says casino. It's not crazy to go into a casino to gamble. It's normal. If you payoff a crazy, you are gambling more than he is. You are gambling that he misread his hand. All he did was gamble to catch a card. Who is crazy?


As to moving up, to think that a game is easier to beat because the players are tougher is truly crazy, IMO.


Tommy

Michael,


I've been playing poker in casinos for almost four years, professionly for 2 1/2years. I started out playing mainly 10-20 because the rake, I was told, was too high($5) to beat the smaller games consistently. I got comfortable at 10-20(went broke once) and the jump to 15-30 seemed barely a jump at all. The jump to 20-40 seemed like the Grand Canyon both in money and in adjusting to the game. Then we didn't even have the 15-30 very often. So I played 10-20 mostly, I played it long past the time I was already considered just about the best "10-20" player in the room, and long after I had what many people considered an adequate bankroll. In the meantime I'd take "shots" at 20-40 if I liked the line-up. Sometimes I would get ahead 600-800, the game would get a little tougher looking and I'd go back to 10-20 and try to grind out a few hundred more for the day. Sometimes I'd get my ass kicked and go back to 10-20 for days, weeks, or longer. But I wanted to move up and I kept trying until I had what I felt was a comfortable bankroll to try to be a regular in my local 20-40 and it STILL took many months to fully adjust. All the while, I read the books, asked the questions and thought, thought, thought about poker as our hosts here said to do. My game is lightyears better than it was a few years ago, I've long been considered one of the best 20-40 holdem players in my cardroom and now I'm slowly working towards making the jump to 50-100(H.O.S.E.); more games to try to become expert at, tougher players than I'm used to, and a much higher limit to get comfortable with. But I'll keep working my ass off and I expect I'll get there pretty soon-then on to bigger and better and higher. Keep learning and thinking and remember you don't have to become a "15-30 player" all at once.


good luck (who needs luck, just gimme my share of cards),


Sunglasses Mike

Michael- when you say the 4-8 players are "crazy",I think you mean they are loose, and their loose play disturbs you because you cannot put them on a hand and they run you down. On the other hand, you feel the 15-30 "tough" players are playing correctly, because they are not loose (with the 2 exceptions you mentioned) and that they are easier to read. But like Tommy A says: "to think a game is easier to beat because the players are tougher is truly crazy". There is a HUGE difference between a 4-8 and a 15-30 player. Just because you played one 2 hour session of 15-30 does NOT make you a 15-30 player. The pros at 15-30 are there because they beat the game over the long run. There is an early 15-30 game at Bellagio which is full of guys who can beat just about anyone that wanders into their lair. If you want tough, check that game out! There is also an early 10-20 game at the Mirage which is one of the hardest games to beat at that level.

My suggestion is to work your way up as follows: First, master 6-12 (if it has a half kill to 10-20 that's better practice). Second, master 10-20. If you become a really solid 10-20 player, you can then move up to 15-30. This is provided you have the bankroll to do it, by the way. Minimum you need for 15-30 is 9G's. Unless you are wealthy or crazy yourself, I don't think you are ready to jump from 4-8 to 15-30. By the way, I have seen both "maniacs" and the tightest "rocks" playing 15-30 hold 'em. If you want guarantees, put your money in T-bills. Otherwise, be prepared for anything. Good luck, and keep us posted. Babe

Thanks Tommy. I really enjoy reading your posts. You have a unique perspective and come across brutally honest. I must have come across as if I don't know that I'm gambling or that I think that with my knowledge of poker I should be a winner. Neither of these is true.


What I’m saying is that paying attention is already taxing on the brain. It’s especially taxing when paying attention doesn’t allow you to obtain any useful information other than “he can have anything at any time and will bet anything at any time”. When there’s two or three of that type at your table plus a couple that are constantly in “let’s make this a pot” mode, I guess it’s time to look for a table change.


I certainly don’t think moving to 15/30 will be an easier game. But I think it may be a beatable game. I don’t know if you play in CA., the LL games I’ve been in lately have had many many “gamblers”. I would expect there to be better players in the higher limits - trickier players who are paying as much, if not more, attention to me as I am of them. But when they show their hands I should get useful information. On occasion I’ll get dis-information. That’s part of the game - I respect that. And each time I show a hand it’s impacting my table image. For the record I don’t play the lottery, don’t go to the track, no roulette for me. I only play poker. Occasionally when in Vegas with buddies, I’ll play Blackjack or Pai-Gow with them, but that’s only for fun – I have no precept of making money at these games.


-Michael

No, I mean they’re crazy. I mean sometimes I suspect collusion. But then they both show middle pair with worse kicker when the pot was capped before the flop and on the flop. They just laugh and say “you play that man?”. Loose play is just that – loose play. These players are just pushing chips back and forth until it runs out (goes to the drop). I don’t expect 15/30 players to be easier to read, but I do expect them to be readable. The players I’m talking about in my post are NOT readable.


I don’t want tough games. I want games where I have a fighting chance.


The bankroll requirement you speak of is not a problem. I’ve got that covered multiple times. But I saved it. It’s not family or stock market bubble money – I work hard and live well within my means. My annual income is more than 10 times the bankroll figure you speak of. But I certainly don’t consider myself wealthy. Wealthy would be if my income was this without working (interest income). Even with that said, if I play 15/30, it will be with scared money. But the times I get beat, I’ll know why and be able to adjust. How can one adjust when they don’t know why they were beat?


-Michael

isnt there a game at your local cardroom that is somewhere between 4-8 and 15-30? my experience is that the rake is so atrocius at 4-8 that that takes away from skilled play right there.


i would recommend playing 6-12, 8-16, or 9-18 and winning for quite a few months before moving up to 15-30. im assuming you have the proper bankroll (or a good job) to do this.

"There is also an early 10-20 game at the Mirage which is one of the hardest games to beat at that level."


i made the mistake of playing this game last time i was there, early one sunday morning, it was truly terrible. in fact all the games in vegas are generally terrible relative to L.A.

Yes, the casino I frequent spreads 6/12 and 8/16. My thinking is that these games have your better LL players in them. And that 15/30 (the lowest high-limit game my casino spreads) would have more mediocre players that just have the money to play at this level. Is that theory not very valid?


Thanks,


-Michael

Mike L- Just curious as to why you think "all the games in Vegas are terrible compared to LA? Can you elaborate? I've never played in LA, so Vegas is all I know. Babe

Michael- In your response to me you wrote : "If I play 15-30 it will be with scared money". If you are playing with "scared money", especially at the higher limits, you will greatly increase you chances of failure, as you will likely not bet properly and generally "play scared". I've seen it happen over and over to "good players". Just "Don't do it, Nike.!!" Also, if the guys in the 4-8 are just dumping money into the pot and playing like maniacs, then you should be able to make money in that game. Sure, they will run you down sometimes, but over the long run, they WILL lose. I do understand that you hate being subjected to nonsense and it apparently distracts you from the game. Any distractions that you cannot tune out will hurt your concentration, and therefore, your play will suffer. I again will suggest you move to 6-12 or so (even 10-20) before you go to the 15-30. Do not go to ANY game if you are not ready financially, emotionally and intellecually. Also, if you find that you start losing at the "higher limits", just drop back down to the previous level until you get on track again. One of the dealers at Bellagio who is a very good 8-16 player found that he made more money at 4-8 so he's been playing there for months with great success. We all thought of him as an 8-16 player, but again, he MAKES MORE money at the 4-8. Always try to play the game you can BEAT-- not the game you think you can beat! It IS about the money, honey. Image is great, but winning is better! It's good that you have a job to help support you while you learn and move up. Keep us posted on your progress, and I'll be waiting for you at the 15-30 in Vegas. Good Luck. Babe.

"There is also an early 10-20 game at the Mirage which is one of the hardest games to beat at that level."


I was in Vegas last May and I had a rendevous scheduled with a friend at the Mirage in the morning. I arrived early and took a seat in the starting line up of the $10-20 game. Funny how it went down. There was maybe one or two flops and no turn cards during the first two rounds of play. Next time I got the button, it was folded to me and I raised without looking at my cards and both blinds folded. Next hand, from the cutoff, everyone folded again, and I raised in the dark again. The button folded, and both blinds called! Yikes!! A monster pot!


Here comes the fun part. The flop came K-Q-x. The SB folded without checking, and the BB did the same! Take it!


My friend showed up right before my next big blind, thank goodness, because my larceny would have surely gotten out of hand. I quit, up $20 bucks, feeling naughty and nitty.


Tommy

"I don’t know if you play in CA.,"


I do.


"the LL games I’ve been in lately have had many many “gamblers”."


That's why it takes a different sort of game to win at LL compared to ML. That's why it's so hard to move up and do well, because the natural tendency is to learn to beat one level before rising to the next. At both games, aces beat kings, and we get two cards, and there's a button, etc. But it's an illusion to think of the two games as rungs on the same ladder. It's two ladders.


And that's just half of it. The biggest difference is the environment, the lack of chatter about who played what and how, the half-dozen stoics who look as fearless as a statue, the friendly dealer who all of a sudden isn't saying a word. Players used to the LL atmosphere have a hard time breathing at ML, and it's not strictly because of the change in betting patterns.


Tommy

"Yes, the casino I frequent spreads 6/12 and 8/16. My thinking is that these games have your better LL players in them. And that 15/30 (the lowest high-limit game my casino spreads) would have more mediocre players that just have the money to play at this level. Is that theory not very valid?"


ok this is a good point and i think i have this figured out to some extent.


if we can simplify for a moment and divide all players into two types: good and weak:


there are good and weak players at every level (but not necessarily at every level at every cardroom).


in general, the likelihood you will be against weaker opposition is higher at lower levels. BUT, this is not always the case. (for instance everyone keeps telling me not to play the 10-20 at HP anymore because the 15-30 is a much better game there. sometimes this is true. and sometimes i wish i never played anything but 6-12 there because that game there is generally so incredibly soft that my expectation playing it is huge relative to my expectation at the yellow chip games.)


in L.A. there are many players who have all sorts of money, it's one of the wealthiest places in the world. so there is a higher ratio of fishy mid limit players there. this may NOT be the case where you play though. if you play in a much less populated place then things may be very different.


something interesting though to keep in mind before you move right up (and this is the point ive been awkwardly working towards)---> at mid limits these fish have teeth and they can bite very hard sometimes if you are playing with scared money. there is a certain type of player who makes very big mistakes preflop and on the flop, but then chews your gnads off and spits them out on the expensive streets. some of these "fish" can read hands very well and they get you that way, some of them are able to make very sophisticated laydowns and that is their real strength, and some can pull off bluffs you wouldnt dream of. even if they are long run losing players with big leaks in their game, they may be used to playing against "pros" and theyve been doing so for years, so theyve picked up some strengths in their game.


at 6-12 you will not encounter these sorts of players very often, weak players at 6-12 dont mess with other players, they just play their cards and they dont play them very well. even most 15-30 losers have some understanding of how to make a play to throw you off your hand, otherwise they would not survive at that level long enough to keep them coming back. so while it may seem like the 15-30 game is easier than the 6-12 or 8-16 game that is usually not the case. you are correct in that just because the level is higher doesnt necessarily mean the players are better or the game is tougher, but your own game (hand reading skills, hand selection, your whole bag of tricks) needs a great deal more finesse when playing higher.


if you are having trouble beating 4-8 i recommend you play 6-12 because of the rake and make sure you know how to beat the hell out of it on a regular basis before even considering playing higher. this should take several months.

Tommy- What you are saying about the Mirage 10-20 is that unless someone had aces, they folded, and your raising just scared 'em off? Easy money for you, indeed. Funny how perceptions differ, isn't it? That game is considered one of the hardest to beat in town and when I play it (which is rare), a win of 1BB/hr is often hard to accomplish. In fact, the last time I played there, I won $22.00 in almost 3 hours! The game is "tough" because 7 of the "regulars" are very tight and solid players. There is not alot of bluffing and if someone raises in that game, most of the players will drop (again, they assume the raiser has a premium hand). Thus, bluffing will get you a few bucks, but you're likely not going to get 5 guys calling 2 raises BTF! Pots generally don't get to big (unless a few tourists want to contribute) and it can be hours between hands for any given player there. But perception is reality and for you, the "nits" are the "nuts"! Can't wait to meet you sometime in Vegas...Maybe we can go play this game together so I can learn how to beat those guys!.... Nits up, pal.

the games (from my experience) are generally much softer and easier to beat in L.A. im talking about 9-18, 10-20, 15-30 level. because there are less games in vegas and probably a higher ratio of mid stakes pros in vegas, the games are generally tougher and tighter than in L.A. perhaps it's because there are so many people in L.A. who just have a LOT of money compared to the rest of the country and world. L.A. games have a rep for being loose and wild. the loose part is true, but not often is a game truly wild.


in vegas you have the tourist aspect, but hey, im a tourist when i go there and im armed w/ 2+2 superpowers. in L.A i see players all the time who wander over from the 21 pits to see what's up and drop several hundred playing any hand, and people who just walk in off the street cause theyre bored and drop $500 playing 6-12.


not to mention all the gambling addicts, but you have those there too. the thing is they dont have the option of craps, roulette and slots here to compete with poker.

"My friend showed up right before my next big blind, thank goodness, because my larceny would have surely gotten out of hand. I quit, up $20 bucks, feeling naughty and nitty."


out of hand? how so. i would think you would like the way the blinds played these hands, they played them just like you!

actually i take that back you wouldve fodled the blinds preflop.


it's actually possible they recognized your face, know how you play from this site, and they were setting you up for future hands. ouch.


that 10-20 early game is truly terrible.

Thanks for the advice. I have a question:


What is a winning player at 4/8? I've read that 4/8 can't be beat given the button drop. Where I play it's $3 on the button. Collection takes place before the hand is dealt. If it's dealt, $3 is dropped regardless of whether there's a flop or not.


I've played 827 hours and am down $2565. I figure I've payed 827 hours x 3.5 button/hour x $3/button = $8683.50. So, without the drop I'm up $6100+ or almost 1 Big Bet per hour.


How am I ever going to beat 4/8 on a regular basis if the game isn't beatable?


-Michael

Mike L. Yep, that's what I thought you meant. You are correct when you note there are more mid level pros here. I butt heads with these guys almost every day. Occassionally, we do get our share of the "loose" LA crowd, and then it's about 90% that the Vegas guys beat them. Here's a story of one of the times I lost to a guy from your area... One day, at Bellagio, I made it 2 raises BTF with my pocket rockets and some (LA) guy reraised me with A-J. It was now just me and LA. The flop came 4, J, 7 rainbow. I bet he called, turn was Kh - I bet he still called. You know what happened next...River was J and I felt a sick feeling in my stomach. After he took my money, he said he had put me on a "high pair". I then asked him what the hell was he thinking my high pair was?? Qs, Ks or As? ALL OF WHICH HAD HIM BEAT till the river. Duhhhh?? He was determined to find an Ace on the river or the 3rd jack, and a nuclear warhead would not have gotten him off the hand! Money was clearly no object to this guy, as I later learned. His parents owned several commercial buildings in Century City. I digress...anyway, he was in fact a "loose" player who just kept betting till he went broke. I think he dropped over a grand at that game. I did note that he raised alot with marginal hands at best, which I've heard is characteristic of many LA games. At any rate, thanks for the info. Babe.

Babe,


"What you are saying about the Mirage 10-20 is that unless someone had aces, they folded, and your raising just scared 'em off?"


Heck no!


"That game is considered one of the hardest to beat in town.."


By NO means did I mean to imply otherwise.


"But perception is reality and for you, the "nits" are the "nuts"!"


To clarify, the nit in the subject line was me, not them.


The only reason I posted was because they folded without even checking. That made quite an impression on me.


"Can't wait to meet you sometime in Vegas..."


Or better yet, San Francisco.


Tommy <-- has game, won't travel (to play poker)

"I've played 827 hours and am down $2565. ...without the drop I'm up $6100+ ... "


To anyone who aspires to win long range, your summary is the most important info there is. It's all too easy to think one session at a time. Oh, I won $200, woulda been $260 without the rake. Oh well, no biggie.


Yes, biggie.


Since going full time I've payed about half a million in rake and tokes. My optimist eye sees the rake as the cost of doing business. My pessimist eye sees it as a nearly insurmountable hurdle.


Tommy

"What is a winning player at 4/8? I've read that 4/8 can't be beat given the button drop. Where I play it's $3 on the button. Collection takes place before the hand is dealt. If it's dealt, $3 is dropped regardless of whether there's a flop or not."


is that $3 live? meaning do you have to pay just $1 more to limp into the hand? in L.A. that's not the case, but it is in the 4-8 and 6-12 game i play in in bakersfield. im assuming it's not live, in which case you should still be able to beat it, but you will have bigger swings and you cant beat it by much. it's basically a waste of time to play anything lover than 6-12 for $3 dead on the button. and it's a waste of time to play 6-12 for $4 dead on the button (the outrageous price many people pay at some lesser L.A. cardrooms).


"I've played 827 hours and am down $2565."


do not touch 15-30. have you read and reread and obsessed over hpfap, theory of poker, all the other 2+2 books, all of tommy angelo's posts on here, etc, etc? do you regularly post hands from your 4-8 sessions to the small stakes forum? if not, then that would explain your results because you have to have some pretty big leaks in your game to be where you are after 827 hours. all i can say is that if you are looking for help youve found the right place.

I agree wholeheartedly(sp). Absolutely, there's a cost to doing business. And I don't have a problem with that. But I'm having trouble assessing my performance in light of the assertion "4/8 with a $3 dead drop on the button can't be beat". If that's the case, then I think I'm doing very well. If that's not the case, then I think I'm both folding too many hands on the flop and seeing too many flops. A typical case would be this hand:


I'm on the button with Jc9d. There's an early raise and six callers to me. I call. Big Blind (new player) re-raises. By the time it's back to me it's capped (3 raise max) with 8 players in. So it's $8 to me and over $100 in the pot. All 8 see the flop - $128 in the pot. The flop comes Kh9h4d. It's bet and raised to me. If my J was a heart I would have called. But I mucked. The turn is 9s. River is a rag. Big Blind takes it down (~$250) with pocket aces. In this "typical" case I'm really not sure how bad/good my play was.


-Michael

"With all the millions that go into sports betting and lotteries and race tracks and roulette and everything else, why is it such a surprise that people would gamble at a poker table?"


Sports betting can be beat and a small percentage of people consistently make money at it, just like poker. The lottery and roulette can not.


As for moving up to 15 30 so you won't have to face so many K6o players, that doesn't make sense to me. I want K6o playing against my KQ and AK as much as possible. Don't waste your effort trying to put these bozos on a hand, just play good tight aggressive poker against them and you will kill them in the long run.

Agreed. But I don't want to waste my time either. I want to play better poker. Trying to put these players on a hand is not practicing -- it's painful on the brain.


I think I'll try 8/16 and take my lumps.

I say go for it! Browsing some of these responses, IMO these mid-level players are overly full of themselves. These games are simply not much more difficult than the 3-6 games I started out in six months ago. Yes, you have fewer folks playing any ace, and yes you have fewer folks calling down down with runner runner draws (though neither is unheard of even in 20-40). But there are other offsetting factors in addition to that of rakes/tokes already noted.


Many of the 20-40 players posting here may have forgotten how challenging it is to raise with AK when an Ace hits the flop and get seven callers (and these callers are not necessarily incorrect in games of these styles). Meanwhile, in the 20-40 games most players fit into one of two categories: weak (loose-passive, loose-aggressive); or good (tight-aggressive, but very predictable). Neither type should scare you too much if you are comfortable with the basics of the game (and with your bankroll). In any case, if you are a serious player and don't care so much for the "gambling" aspect of the game, I suggest trying the higher limits. Your win rate might be a bit less, your variance will be far less, and you will find the game more satisfying, I believe. Good luck and I'd be interested in hearing how your experience of "moving up" compares with mine if you do go for it.

Good point. although in the long run you will find more bad players at the lowest levels. sometime games like 15-30 ans 20-40 are easier than the 10-20 games,because it just has people that can afford to play and lose at these limits.

thanks you for posting a hand. it's hard to know what advice to give someone re: something like moving up in limits if you dont know them. we can only assume youre a solid player, and that may not be helpful to you for us to assume that.


"I'm on the button with Jc9d. There's an early raise and six callers to me. I call. Big Blind (new player) re-raises. By the time it's back to me it's capped (3 raise max) with 8 players in. So it's $8 to me and over $100 in the pot. All 8 see the flop - $128 in the pot. The flop comes Kh9h4d. It's bet and raised to me. If my J was a heart I would have called. But I mucked. The turn is 9s. River is a rag. Big Blind takes it down (~$250) with pocket aces. In this "typical" case I'm really not sure how bad/good my play was"


playing J9o here for a raise is a very big mistake. if it was suited then you have a call because you are on the button and everyone else is in. on the flop you need to cold call the raise because you are getting the correct odds to draw for 2 pair or trips, despite the chance that two of your outs may be dead to a heart draw and a J may also be no help. the pot is just too big to drop out on the flop for 2 SBs. so you misplayed the only two streets you have ever told us about, not a good sign.


ramming, jamming 4-8 games like this are beatable even with the $3 dead drop because when you do hit a pot it is usually a huge one. it is the generally loose passive low limit games where you cannot overcome the long term effects of the rake.


you need to learn what sort of hands to play in a loose game like this. start over by going to the general and low stakes sections of this site and asking all about advice on how to beat a game like this 4-8. also read and memorize the loose games section of hpfap and really take to heart what it says. you also need to read and fully grasp all the material in theory of poker. continue to post hands and be willing to completely change the way you play and think about hold em. then youll be on the way to reversing your results, getting back to even, and then forging ahead.

Tommy - boy, am I glad you clarified your experience at the Mirage 10-20 game. It would have kept me up all night to think that only the babe found that game tedious and tough. P.S. I don't plan on being in San Fran for awhile, so I guess we will just have to "chat" nit-to-nit. Babe

" ...then I think I'm both folding too many hands on the flop and seeing too many flops. A typical case would be this hand:"


Excellent example of both. I agree with Mike about calling after the flop, but I disagree with him about calling before the flop. I don't think it's a bad play. I think it's a high-fluctuation play. You can will your way into a low-flux game by mucking these hands from every seat no matter what. Whatever edge might be lost (and there's no certainty of that) could be made up for by less emotional strain and a constantly reinforced tight image.


I made note of a conjecture while playing the other day, not sure if it's valid; to beat a California $6-12, you should be the tightest preflop player in the game by far.


Tommy

Here's another if you care to take a gander:


Thanks for your help Tommy and Mike and BABE and all.


-Michael

"to beat a California $6-12, you should be the tightest preflop player in the game by far."


firstly, this is not hard to do. secondly, this is not even close to true.


in a typical L.A. 6-12 i will be playing tighter than probably every player at the table preflop, but this is just incidental. i will be playing much looser than if i was playing 15-30. i will be playing all sorts of funky hands in late position, and even some interesting ones in middle position, depending on the nature of the players to my left. occasionally there will be a wannabee rock type who is playing tighter than me, sometimes even two players like that. theyre easy to ignore because theyre hardly ever in a pot. they usually have looks of shock and frustration on their faces because they cant figure out why their raises get no respect from the other players and why they have to keep rebuying. they simply do not understand how to maximize profit in loose games.