Trapped

[naphand]

Back on PokerStars and it seems everyone is on crack after the WSOP. They are bad, just aggro and bad.

In this hand MP is definitely LAG, he is seeing 70% of flops and raising about 30%. BB and UTG have done nothing of note and I have no read as yet.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Naphand is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">MP raises</font>, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Naphand 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, MP calls, Naphand calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP bets</font>, Naphand calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Naphand 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB caps</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Naphand calls.

River: (24.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Naphand calls.

Final Pot: 28.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 28.25 BB, between Naphand, BB, UTG and MP.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by BB (28.25 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows 7h 6h (straight, nine high).
UTG shows Ks Ac (one pair, kings).
MP shows Kc Tc (one pair, kings).
Naphand shows Kh Qs (one pair, kings).
Outcome: BB wins 28.25 BB. </font>

So I raise LAG PF, as I am pretty sure he does not have a great hand. Now UTG limp-caps. Hmmm...not sure what to make of this yet but it's another family pot and I have the Button.

The flop was less than stellar. LAG inevitably bets, easy call. Should I raise here? I don't see much point as with this pot, it is probably going to SD.

Turn looks good but it is 2 to me, LAG must have a K, UTG I intend to test with a 3-bet and then BB comes to life and it is capped 3-ways back to me. Well, I am behind, but this is a huge pot and I do have TP.

Note: I have seen these guys regularly capping with draws and TP fair kicker/2-pair.

OK I call to see a River blank. Bets round to me. I'm getting 30:1 to make the call. Who folds? Was my Turn 3-bet excessive? My flop 3-bet was to isolate the LAG, with position. Hindsight suggest this was marginal, comments? Am I reading too many of Nate's posts? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PassiveCaller]

On the flop. I'd strongly consider making this a raise or fold situation, mainly because of the feel of the pre-flop action here. UTG has limp reraised which really looks like some type of AK junk or AA or KK. If he has those we want him to wake up here along with the fact 2 cold calls from the BB and UTG would tell us a lot. Would UTG fold AK here? If so that's another argument in favor. We want to clear things out though... If there's any chance of AQ or AK going buhbye then it makes this a no-brainer not to mention it really sorts things out on the turn.

I think you can safely fold to 2 bets on the turn if you reraised on the flop and you get a much more solid read on the situation. Cold calls on that dry flop say a lot more especially when they come with turn aggression!

[naphand]

Yeah. I was extremely reluctant to fold to MP LAG esp. OTB, but KQo to a PF limp re-raise does not feel too much like another raise (though this could be good suited or Axs). I had already seen a couple of the players call 2 cold PF and on the flop with really trashy hands (SB called 3 with 97s previously), but as you say, and raise on the flop makes any subsequent Turn action more meaningful.

KQo plays very well OTB, I figured my hand was better than LAG, at the same time I figured this missed all the PF raising hands. Trying to be analytical about it, I think a flop fold is slightly the better option, not only is there a real possibility I am dominated by AK/AA/KK but one of the loosies probably paired their kicker and I am likely drawing pretty thin. With a T or J on the board (giving me some kind of re-draw to any A) maybe I could stay on here.

It's a somewhat bizarre hand, with the range of players involved in the action from the get-go. Maybe it's too tough to figure out, but barring a flop fold/raise, what else could I do? It does serve to highlight the value of raising the flop instead of calling, as you pointed out, in terms of making decisions later, on the expensive streets, a lot easier.

[Demian]

Nap,

I'd fold this lots of times on the flop too. If i'm not folding it though i'm definitely raising to see what UTG does. If he stays in i'm not even that happy to see that K on the turn anymore, which tells me i probably want to fold the flop most of the time unless i have a decent read on UTG that tells me otherwise.

[naphand]

This would appear to be the considered opinion.

We get a lot of "I find it hard to fold when I raise PF" type posts. I guess this falls within that bracket, but in a more specific way, namely; I-find-it-hard-to-fold-to-a-LAG-who-I-reckon-I-have dominated-OTB-with-a-loose-moron-to-my-left.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PassiveCaller]

I didn't add in the fact that I like fold more then raise most of the time in my post but I just wanted to illustrate why call was probably was the worst option here given the action.