20-40 hand in Chicago

Hey everyone, I'm new to all of this i-net stuff please forgive any faux pas on my part.


My BB, one limper (L1) UTG semi-loose player can't lay down a decent hand, another limper (L2) in late-middle position plays a few too many starting hands plays well after flop capable of tough laydows;next player raises and has only $30 left decent player but going all-in, I call with A-5h.


flop: K rag rag(not connected)two hearts


checks to preflop raiser who bets, I check-raise hoping to increase my outs (bad play? do I want the limpers to call?).L1 calls,L2 backraises, preflop raiser calls all-in, I call, L1 calls. I believe L2 most likely has a big K or flush draw.


turn: Kh!


I check (should I bet??)almost positive that someone will bet, they don't disappoint...L1 bets(probably a K) L2 raises (now I'm sure he has a flush) I 3-bet, L1 call the 2 bets cold L2 mucks his flush(yes he told me later)


river: blank


L1 calls with his unimproved KQ


Did I let L2 off the hook by 3-betting, do I make as much as I should have?

I'll appreciate any comments, though I may not be able to look at them for a day or two. Thanks

With a nut flush draw on the flop and several opponents, I'm looking to trap as many players for as many bets as possible on the flop. I would normally bet out and hope the preflop raiser raises me here, but if he can't make a raise with only 1.5 bets left (is he allowed to make a short raise in your card room?), I might check and hope L1 or L2 bets so I can raise them instead. After it checks to preflop raiser and he bets I would just call to attract more players into the pot while I am drawing. If preflop raiser wasn't nearly all in, I would raise him to set up a steal on the turn if he will automatically bet in this spot, which should succed a lot with an unloved flop like Kxx.


I have no problem with your check on the turn as long as you are pretty sure someone will bet for you. It sure doesn't look like anyone can have a full house yet, so I am going to reraise the same as you while everyone else has to be drawing or dead or both. It's a shame L2 makes a good fold here, but your raise earned you the same amount of money as if you call, since L1 is still in with you. You lose L2's river call, but against most players you would win 2 more bets, and even L2 would call the reraise if he had held KxQh instead of the flush. I wouldn't worry about letting a good player "off the hook" as much as I would worry about extracting the most money from worse players when I hold the best hand.

Coilean,


Yes, if I bet out on the flop the preflop raiser could have made it 30 all-in, and I could then make it 50; would you do this? I normally don't try to get in so many bets w/ only the nut flush draw in this bad of position. Thanks for your response.


Mike

The reasons a nut flush draw are so favorable in a multiway pot are explained in HPFAP somewhere (can't remember where off the top of my head). Basically, your equity on any bets going into the pot is huge because your draw "trumps" anyone in there with less than two pair -- that is, those with less than two pair are drawing only against each other, since you will beat them all if you make your flush.


Flopping a nut flush draw on an unpaired board in a multiway pot is so favorable that you should care less about your position than about getting as many bets into the pot as possible when you figure to have 2 or more callers. Besides the great equity you have on these bets being put in, building a huge pot will earn you more calls from the pot lust of lesser hands when the third card of your suit hits. Your position also matters less because when you miss your draw, you will not be faced with a difficult calling decision unless you hit an ace.


An additional benefit of playing your nut flush draws this way is that if you play your sets the same way, your opponents might be less afraid you have made a flush when the third card of your suit hits. This will give them some encouragement to draw dead to straights and smaller flushes if you make it on the turn, and to pay off raises with these hands on the river.

You have a good read on L2, given that he c/r the field from late position. If he has a made hand he'd bet into the preflop raiser hoping to raise.


Along the same lines, your c/r on the flop should look more like a made hand since you're making lots of players call 2 bets cold. When the Kh falls on the turn, if you bet out it will be harder for people to put you on the flush. You might get more action from L2 this way, which is what you asked about.


All in all, it probably doesn't matter if the first bet on the turn comes from you or L1. The only way it might is if L1 is aggressive enough to raise a good kind on the turn. Then all the bets on the turn might increase by one. However, I can't see a downside to this play if you don't think L1 is going to fold a king, so it might be worth a try.

The situation on the turn is that at least one opponent has a king, and the other may have a flush.


Your expectation may be higher waiting for the river to put in another raise, as a board pair ruins your hand. You would want to hold a smaller flush in dead, and raise the river where your hand is most likely good. This has the added advantage of savign you money if you are against a fh already.


Just a thought.


Dan Z.

But you also have to take into account what will happen if a 4th heart comes down on the river i.e. you clearly lose your market then except unwanted business from a full house.


Generally, raises on the turn are to be preferred. This is because there are lots of reasons why you could be raising (i.e., not just that you have a very good hand). Your opponents know that and are therefore more likely to call (or even reraise) on the turn as opposed to the river.

I wouldn't usually assume my opponents are good enough to fold a smaller flush on the turn here. In this case, Mike G. indicated beforehand that L2 often made good folds, so Dan has a valid point in this situation. I'm just saying you shouldn't in general assume your opponents play this well until they prove you wrong. Give them every chance to make big calling errors, until you find out they won't make them often enough to be profitable. And if none of your opponents will make these errors for you, I'm sure you can find a better game to play in elsewhere.

Muffin,


Thanks for your response, I often will bet out in similar situations hoping to be raised; I must have been suddenly salivating at the prospect of c/r-ing since I KNEW that at least one of them would bet. It could have just as easily gone bet, call, raise, reraise, call, fold on the turn-same result. Thanks again.


Mike

Mike,


Thanks for the response. I don't necessarily want to encourage you into my game (compliment), but there is plenty of dead money flying around so come on over. SEAT OPEN.


Good luck,


Mike

Dan,


Thanks for the input. I spoke w/ another player whom I respect and he also made the point about waiting to make sure the board doesn't pair. However, it occurs to me now that L2 may not bet the river if I call two bets cold on the turn and even if he does, there is a slight chance that both players could muck on the river for a checkraise, L1 realizing that his trips are beat and he has to call two bets w/ no more cards to come and L2 knowing that he is beat. The way the hand played L1 made a very crying call on the river for only one bet. Of course, I still sometimes give other players too much credit, for their thought processes, not necessarily their hands. Thanks again.


Mike

I just found out about this site today. I normally post on rec.gambling.poker. I didn't know you had internet access, Mike. I suppose I'll see you in the game tomorrow.


Signed,

"The Sheep" /images/smile.gif

Hey Ted,


Just got on-line, its a little addictive but then so am I. I won't be at the game tomorrow, maybe late. A buddy of mine who's moving to Vegas is having a going away party. Welcome back to the game. See you soon.


Mike