Q2s in the SB: Automatic Fold?

I was playing in a fairly normal California 20-40 game yesterday and I ended up winning the biggest pot of my life (over $900) with Q2s. On my way home, I was thinking about that particular hand, and was pretty sure that I shouldn't have even called preflop. Here's the situation:


UTG+1 (a loose-aggressive) opens with 2 bets. By the time it gets to me in the SB, there are 4 players already in the pot and the BB looks like he's ready to call (I was pretty certain that he wasn't gonna raise). I calculate that there's gonna be $210 in the pot (my dead $10 SB and assuming BB calls the raise) and I need to put in $30 more to see the flop with Qd2d. I admit that I was too caught up in the potential size of the pot and ended up calling. Is this an awful decision? Did I have anywhere close to the correct odds to make this call?


All of the friends that I've consulted with told me that it should have been an automatic fold and that I shouldn't have let the size of the pot influence my decision. I admit, Q2s is a pretty bad hand in general and it's worse when I'm way out of position. Guess I was in a gambling mood and got lucky. In this situation, is this hand an automatic fold? What if I had suited connectors? Was there enough money in the pot to justify calling with something like 67s? How about something like Q10o?


BTW, for those who are curious, I ended up flopping a flush draw and making a runner-runner two pair with my Q2s to win the hand.


Thanks in advance for your comments and flame away!

Jace,


Event if the whole field was in I wouldn't call a raise in the 20/40 structure out of the small blind with queen-shit suited and it is not close.


Look at it this way. You have five opponents (if the big blind doesn't raise), you are out of position, and you are getting only a 25% "discount" on your call. QT suited would be my borderline suited hand with a queen.


However, any pair is playable and lower suited connectors might be OK if the field is optimal (not too much post flop pressure). The only offsuit high cards I would play are AK and perhaps AQ, although the latter will depend on how solid the UTG raiser is.


You are wise to ignore results and think about the hand critically on the drive home. Many a bad habit is ingrained after a good result with a hand like this.


Regards,


Rick

1) "I ended up winning the biggest pot of my life (over $900) with Q2s. On my way home, I was thinking about that particular hand, and was pretty sure that I shouldn't have even called preflop."


You should always call pre-flop when you're going to win the biggest pot of your life.


2) They were talking about defending your blind in a short-handed game (but did say it applies to some situations in full games), but here is what S & M have to say about playing hands with a deuce in them:


"We do want to caution you about playing hands that contain a deuce or a trey. The trouble with these cadrs is that if you flop a pair and yourhand is best at that moment, virtually any card that comes can beat you."


3) There was a raiser and 3 guys had good enough hands to cold-call that raise. The fact that your hand is suited gives it some value, but not anywhere near enough to call 1-1/2 bets from the small blind.


Yes, an automatic fold, (my joking comment in point 1 above notwithstanding) but I think you already know this. The fact that there were a lot of players in the hand actually makes your hand less attractive as it is now less likely that if you hit a queen it will be good.

I like the "Ciaffone Rule" for calling raises out of your small blind. The rule says that if you would not cold-call a bet and raise from the button, then you should not call a raise from the small blind either with the same hand since the button ought to be worth half of a bet.

Jim,


That is a great rule of thumb but works primarily for the 20/40 stucture. In the 15/30 structure I think you should call with hands that would be a close fold for two bets on the button.


Regards,


Rick

Jace,


"All of the friends that I've consulted with told me that it should have been an automatic fold ..."


If I seemed horrified when we talked, it wasn't so much about this hand, but that this hand meant that you have some major leakage going on, and I'd hate to see anything dim that glow of yours.


Rick's words exactly mirror my thoughts:


"Event if the whole field was in I wouldn't call a raise in the 20/40 structure out of the small blind with queen-shit suited and it is not close."


Back to Jace:


"Guess I was in a gambling mood ..."


Try this, seriously. If the goal is to keep the gambling animal on a shorter and shorter leash, but for now he's going to get out and you know it, do your gambling ONLY on the button. Take those chips not spent on the blinds, and just jack it up before the flop now and then, but only from the button. Feed the animal with a tastier treat.


Tommy

Rick, Andy, Jim, and Tommy, I applaud you all for always posting excellent answers to questions by posters

This is lousy, but if you have a "pet hand" (that's suited, and please, pick one suit) and do this from the blinds it won't matter too much, if this tactic keeps you from doing this at other times.


So if every time you pick up Qs2s in the blinds, you play it for 1 raise or no raise, this won't matter to you in the long run.

If this satisfies your desire to play funny hands, you probably will come out ahead.


Doing this stuff in general will be very expensive.


Dan Z.

I think this is a pretty clear fold. The only times I'll call here is if people have been noticing that I haven't played a hand in awhile.


I'd watch out for the BB looking like he's just calling. I'd rather have the BB look like he's folding than calling. Very few players look like they're folding and raise. A fair number of players raise when they look like they're calling.

When I first started to play I won a monster pot with Js-8s. It became my "pet hand." I played it from anywhere for any number of bets.


Very expensive is a perfect description of this "strategy."

I agree that this is pretty much an automatic fold. The only exception might be if you've shown down a few hands and won a few pots recently, you can try and play a garbage hand like this. After you won, especially if you have the image of a tight player, people aren't going to know what to expect from you. I'd only try this once or twice a session: only if I was ahead for the evening, and if it wouldn't cost me more than a bet. The only problem is that if it works once, you might be tempted to try it more often and that will get you trouble. If this only works one out of 25 times, then figure you'll have to go another 24 to start over -- save yourself some money and don't do it again!


Congrats on the monster hand!