Ciaffoen Quiz Question

In Poker Essays 3, Mason answers the quiz from Ciaffone's book "Improve Your Poker".


there's one queston which Mason's answer surprised me.

The game is a normal 20/40 ring game.


The flop is KsTc5s. The SB bets in a 4 handed unraised pot.

What hands do you raise with vs. call?


A) JsTs B) As9s C) QcJc


My answer was to raise with the first 2, and call with the 3rd.

The main reasons for raise with A and B are:

1) my raise will often get the pot heads up, if not, I have a very strong draw and probably make mony on the flop round.

2) I may buy 2 outs if an AJ is out in hand B), or 1 out if the bettor has a king, and someone else has middle pair. I gain a more if this player has a TJ. I may knock out a better hand than

3) if my opponent is betting a draw, I will win a showdown heads up. The only exception is in hand b) if opponent has AJ. I may even beat or freeroll in hand A) if opponent has a mediocre ten.

4) I can buy a free card if I choose, though I would often bet again and go for a free showdown.


The reason I did not raise with the last hand, is that you can more easily represent a flush draw by calling, your hand is less likely to win a showdown, and is simply not as strong. Another reason is a club on the turn will set up a big semi-bluff raise on that round.


Comments appreciated.


Dan Z.

I agree, although I would consider raising with c as well and taking a free card if a club didn't come.

mason agrees, i think, that you should raise with the As9s. So the issue you have is with the JsTs. I think the difference is that you have the additional out of possibly winning with an A if it falld and you dont make the flush. The JT is a pure drawing hand. Also it is less likely that a raise will limit the pot where there are high flush and straight draws on this board.


I dont remember what masons response was, but i'll look it up.


Pat

One piece of information which is missing from the quiz is whether or not the pot was raised preflop. How big is the pot? I would assume that it was unraised so there are only five small bets in the pot when it is the big blind's turn to act.


With jack-ten suited, you have a flush draw with middle pair. You have 14 outs (9 flush outs, 2 outs to trips, and 3 outs to two pair - not 15 outs as stated in Poker Essays III)and are therefore a mathematical favorite to make a flush, trips, or two pair by the river and you will going to the river with this hand. I would raise for value here. It is unlikely in a four-handed pot like this that anyone else is on a flush draw. You could win the pot outright and you are a favorite to make the winning hand anyway.


With ace-nine suited, you have 12 outs (9 flush outs plus 3 overcard outs) so you are almost even money to make a flush or top pair by the river. However, top pair may not win all the time. Again, I think another flush draw is very unlikely in a shorthanded pot like this but a straight draw is possible. There will be numerous gutshot draws as well as one open-end straight draw if one of your three opponents hold specifically queen-jack. I think it is close between raising and calling. A raise may make it easier for you to win if you hit a top pair of aces or even allow you to win with ace-high. I think it is close.


With queen-jack suited but not in the flush suit, I like calling. While there are scenarios where raising may work out well, I think overall Ciaffone's reasoning is sound here.

I assumed i was on the button. On the BB, I just call with c.

I would call with JTs. There is a strong possibility of being dominated by the small blind holding K-J or K-10 and it is also likely that some of your two pair/trip outs are not live. Most of the equity in this situation is from the flush draw.


I would raise with A9s. You certainly want to drive out gutshot draws like A-J, A-Q. Since you have the As those hands would be wise to fold.


I would call with QJc

IMHO, the JTs hand is not as strong as it appears because there is a good possibility that middle two pair or trips will not win this pot. I hate the feeling of building a big pot for someone else to win.

I too would bet out on the flop. It jives well with my overall strategy in blinds vs. steal raise situations.


The stealer would have to be atypical for me not to call preflop with JTs (i.e. he has to be tighter than most players).

Dan Z.,


Without looking at the answer I copied from above:


"The flop is KsTc5s. The SB bets in a 4 handed unraised pot. What hands do you raise with vs. call?" (You are in the big blind).


I remember this quiz from years ago and this is how I would answer in my current deranged state. I haven't looked at your or the other answers yet.


A) JsTs


Raise. If the small blind is betting a draw you already beat him. If he is betting a king you have so many outs that are hardly a dog. If he is betting a weak king you can perhaps get him to lay down his hand (I would often bet a weak king here and lay down to a raise from mid position).


B) As9s


It is close between raising and calling but I like the raise more. It might get you head up which helps if he is betting a draw of his own. If he has a king your ace is now a better out with only one opponent (unless he has AK). If he is stronger you


C) QcJc


Call. This hand doesn't play well head up and it is not a bluff catcher. Let the field behind in and mostly play for your draw.


Regards,


Rick

Dan Z.,


Someone has borrowed my Ciaffone book "Improve Your Poker" (which I assume the quiz came from) and I'm reserving "Poker Essays 3" for my Christmas list. What was the essence of the disagreement between Mason and Bob?


Regards,


Rick

It was more my disagreement with Mason, but I also disagreed with Bob.


Mason says raise As9s but not JsTs. Bob says raise JsTs but not the others. No one says raise JcQc.


I said to rasie both of the first 2. I feel more strongly about the A9, but I think they are both raises.


Dan Z.

Dan,


We agree again more or less.


BTW, remember that post you made a week ago regarding not raising with KJ on the flop and folding the turn. I (and skp in another thread) was the only one on your side and it still bothers me (my confidence is low right now). Anyway, perhaps your late response cut off some of the debate. Do you have any plans to revisit it? It raises some important issues on post flop play and now that things are settling down in the world it may get more participation.


Regards,


Rick