Heading off a potential problem

[BlackAces]

I just started playing NL SNGs at PokerStars, after abandoning Party because I couldn't get the damn thing to stop timing me out. I only have 26 results so far, but they're promising: 14 cashes, including 2 wins (one 9-player and 1 18-player), 6 seconds and 6 thirds, and an (albeit early) ROI of 51.3%.

While I'm happy with these figures, I'm worried about my ability to sustain them at anything close to this level. My problem, as I see it, is that I play way too tight, especially early. For my last 5, here are my seeing-the-flop stats from outside the blinds, with results in parentheses:

4/93 (2nd/18)
4/50 (7th/9)
6/62 (2nd/9)
2/49 (5th/9)
1/35 (3rd/9)

Yes, that's a grand total of 17 flops seen outside the blinds in 289 hands. I didn't include hands played in the blinds, because the ones where I got down to headsup or 3-handed would skew the results.

Usually what will happen is I'll double through some unsuspecting soul with a dominating hand at around the 75/150 level and be able to move chips around when it gets down to 5 or so, or I'll take a bad beat and get busted or crippled. Very rarely am I able to accumulate chips early, for the simple reason that I rarely limp preflop. The few flops that I do see in the early and middle stages are the result of either getting a low-to-mid PP in late position and trying to flop a set, or raising preflop and getting called. I also avoid calling raises without a really good hand, as my postflop play is what I would consider subpar. But then, what would you expect, only seeing 17 flops in nearly 300 hands? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I realize I haven't really gone into specifics, but any suggestions on how to profitably loosen up? Or is this even that big of an issue for SNGs?

Chris

[udontknowmickey]

I don't think its really that big of a deal. I don't think I've seen a flop outside the blinds in the first few levels(or so) without a pocket pair, and thats 1/17, or right around 17/289. Once blinds get large enough, you don't want to see flops at all. Its just steal steal steal. I think the only time I actually see a flop is when I'm calling a raise intending to push whatever comes. Oh, and slowplayed pockets when its shorthanded.

I'm right around 12% of flops seen outside of blinds. A big part of that is most of my hands are steal or fold. Limping only early with a pocket pair hoping to double through.

Of course, I'm no pro, playing 10+1 NL SNG as well. It really depends on your style. imo though, i think limping, especially at early levels will get you killed. you don't want to be facing an all in holding AQ on a Q97 flop. I'd much rather be the person holding 77 and pushing someone with AQ in on that flop =D

[Copenhaver]

I've been playing at PokerStars for a while now, and I can say that I've been through the same thing you have. I used to be a tight player like that, too, and I'd still be disturbed by the fact that sometimes I'd play less than 30% of the hands in a tournament.

I think that the reason you may never get a big stack early is because you don't take chances. I hated getting down to the last 4 or 5 guys and be out-stacked by 2 grand. So I decided that if I was going to seriously contend for a victory and not just a place, I needed to open up my game somewhere. And sometimes early in the tournament is the place to do it.

And the rule goes, if you play more hands early, even if you don't have the best hand, you're going to get more action later in the tournament when you do have the nuts.

It's a big jump to make, but once you see that you can get others to fold to you without showing down, or if you can win pots with second pair or whatever, it opens a whole new door.

The conventional wisdom is to play tight early on, but if the action is hot, then you need to get in there. Start mixing in middle suited connectors, like 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, or 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. It's very refreshing, invigorating, and exciting. Not to mention, when those hands hit, you can cripple multiple players often. Sure, you will open yourself up to some potentially big losses, but if you shift gears (loose to tight), you will start throwing your opponents off, and they won't want to mess with you late in the tournament, which means that you might be able to pick up some nice blinds propel yourself into a heads-up match with ease.

[byronkincaid]

[ QUOTE ]
My observation, is that the middle buy-ins (22$ included) tend to play too weak-tight, as they consider it as better poker. Thus, you should take advantage of it by stealing more

[/ QUOTE ]

PrayingMantis - Philosopher of SNG Poker

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My observation, is that the middle buy-ins (22$ included) tend to play too weak-tight, as they consider it as better poker. Thus, you should take advantage of it by stealing more



[/ QUOTE ] PrayingMantis - Philosopher of SNG Poker

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. I'm working on my new book now, "Metaphysics, Consciousness and The Sacred: Dealing with Maniacs on The Bubble". /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[udontknowmickey]

[ QUOTE ]


The conventional wisdom is to play tight early on, but if the action is hot, then you need to get in there. Start mixing in middle suited connectors, like 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, or 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. It's very refreshing, invigorating, and exciting. Not to mention, when those hands hit, you can cripple multiple players often. Sure, you will open yourself up to some potentially big losses, but if you shift gears (loose to tight), you will start throwing your opponents off, and they won't want to mess with you late in the tournament, which means that you might be able to pick up some nice blinds propel yourself into a heads-up match with ease.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I haven't really posted too much here, but I really disagree with everything you're saying here. The way I see it, you can almost guarentee yourself a top 5 place by not getting involved w/o a huge advantage early on. This coupled with a (very) tight image should allow you to steal blinds more liberally as you get closer to the money. The problem I see with your strategy, is that you're putting in chunks of chips with what may be the best of it, but may also be the worst of it. And then you're switching to tight when the blinds are getting higher? I'm rather confused how you can tighten up when the blinds are higher. Maybe if you've built a large stack you can tighten a bit, but if you've built a big stack by playing loose, there is very little chance people will allow you to steal.

What does everyone else think? Do I have my strategy completely backwards? Is it just a playing style thing?

[byronkincaid]

I agree, playing tight early and then stealing when the blinds get to the 50/100 to 75/150 levels is working well for me at the moment at stars turbos.

As an aside, I can't believe how slow I am. I've been sitting at my computer hitting the raise button these last few weeks thinking "Why are they folding? I've only got 9 high." It took the PrayingMantis post that I quoted for that little lightbulb to go on above my head. And yes I have read the chapter in TPFAP about the gap concept. I think it's sometimes hard to apply these concepts to internet SNGs. Well it is for me anyway /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

Thanks for the lightbulb moments guys.