10-20 JJ Hand

Playing in a loose passive 10-20 game.


Preflop. UTG open raises. He is an average, generally straightforward player. A solid middle position player (MP) cold calls. I have JJ in cutoff and 3-bet, SB caps and all call. SB is a semi-maniac, so he could have any hand here, I'm more concerned about the other two guys.


Flop: 4s 4d 5d


SB checks

UTG bets

MP calls

I raise

All call.


Turn: 4s 4d 5d 8s


SB checks

UTG bets into me

MP calls

What do I do? Raise or fold seems correct. I am not worried about MP because he is solid and probably doesn't have a 4 or 6-7. He probably has KQd or something. SB could have anything, but I watched him carefully on the turn and I don't think he was going for a check-raise with a 4, so he's probably drawing. I am worried about UTG. What hand could he play like this? I don't think he's drawing, I think he probably has an overpair and didn't want to give me a free card, but I'm just not sure.


I decide to raise with the intention of checking down the river. All call.


Results in separate post.


Thanks in advance for any comments.

River: 4s 4d 5d 8s Jc


Wow, what a card. Checked to me, I bet.

SB calls with 77(what a fish -- yikes!).

UTG overcalls with KK, stomps around a bit and then yells for a dinner marker.


Was it obvious that I was facing an overpair to JJs? Well I wasn't really sure so I decided to err on the side of aggression.

It's a little unclear as to what UTG had. You state that he is a solid player, so I agree that having low cards is not a worry. But does he have a high pair AA, KK, QQ or AK, KQ? He didn't try for a check-raise so he either isn't very agressive or he was trying to slow-play. He could have had AKd and also have been trying for the flush draw. He didn't win with a good hand, but your pocket jacks weren't a bad hand either considering your position. It sucks when you lose hands like this, but it happens. Others might disagree, but I like the bet on the River. Unless someone has pocket 4's, you have the NUT hand and there are two other opponents, so more money for you! By overcall, do you mean he raised or did he simply call?

Preflop, I dislike your 3-betting with pocket jacks in the sequence you have outlined. When a straight-forward player raises under the gun he rates to have AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AK, or AQ. Now when a solid player cold-calls him, he will have a similar hand although presumably he would reraise with AA, KK, or QQ. I think the danger of facing an overpair is too high to 3-bet and you should just call.


On the flop, I would not worry about the under the gun player or the solid player having a four in their hand. Are you raising here because you think your hand is good or are you raising because you want to make a bigger overpair fold? The latter won't happen. With UTG leading and the solid player calling it looks to me like you are up against a bigger pocket pair and are therefore playing two outs. Since there is a remote possibility that the bettor has 99 or TT and that the caller has a similar hand, it could be argued that you have a play. Keep in mind that these guys are leading into you despite your 3-betting preflop.


On the turn, you have an easy fold. You have to be playing two outs at this point which is a 23-to-1 shot and the pot odds are not there.


Nice suckout at the river.

Yes, it is obvious you are beat or tied on the turn. Beat has a much higher probability. This is a fold.


I did not like the 3 bet pre-flop. Against the opponents you describe, you should probably wait, and get a better price on a set.


On the turn, UTG is not bluffing or betting a small pair. He knows everyone is calling, and is not afraid of you any longer. There's a reason he's not afraid of your hand. The MP probably has a flush draw, further weakening your situation.


The pot is protected here, very few players bet not pair here, and this guy sounds like he's among those who wouldn't.


Good luck.


Dan Z.

Pre flop:

I agree with your reraise. As a rule in loose games, if there is more than two people in a raised pot at least one of them does not belong and should have to pay. The blinds playing too loosely make it even clearer.


Flop.

A bet from the UTG raiser followed by a call from a solid MP player. I would be feeling nervous. A raise here certainly helps you work out were your are but might be verging on the overaggressive. Still I have made similar over bets before.


Turn:

No good, I wish I had folded on the flop now. I have 12 to 1 on hitting two outs or that my hand might just be good. Maybe a call but I hate it. I think your argument for raising is superficially plausible, but fails because you underestimate the chance that you are beaten.

jim said:

"When a straight-forward player raises under the gun he rates to have AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AK, or AQ"


at 10-20 (and 9-18 and 15-30) this is simply not the case. maybe it is in vegas, but certainly not in LA, and yes i am still talking about ABC, straight forward players. the player could have 99, even 88 sometimes if he feels the conditions are right, AJs, even AJo sometimes, ATs, KQs, and rarely, but every now and then some other hands like JTs, 98s, etc, etc. also, many better players at this level (at least in the games ive encountered) will go for a limp-reraise UTG with AA and sometimes KK if the conditions seem right to them.


the only reason i am saying this is because ive read this UTG raise criteria from you on here many times before and it always strikes me as imprecise, at least when you are talking about 15-30 or lower. i cant speak for the higher levels because i dont play them--maybe this is generally the case at 30-60--?


i think a 3 bet from the cutoff with JJ here preflop is smart. it will probably gain you the button, knock the blinds possible overcards out, and help you to define your hand on future streets so you dont do something awful like throw the best hand away when someone gets tricky with TT or AK (or other hands).

i like your 3 bet preflop. the middle guy would 3 bet AA,KK,QQ. so you have him. clear out the rest of the field. sure UTG might have AAKKQQ. but the times he doesn't makes this play profitable. AKAQAJs991010. and you have position on him and probably willget the button with 3 bet. flop raise good. turn can't fold pots too big. his hand looks like to me qq. but possibly 99 or 1010. i can't believe he didn't 4 bet with kings. raise on turn is ok or call. muck only if you know this player would not lead at you twice without having jj beat. hard to muck in a big pot like this.

"As a rule in loose games, if there is more than two people in a raised pot at least one of them does not belong and should have to pay."


I agree with your rule of thumb, and love the way you stated it. However, I think you should only apply this thinking to pots with the loose players in them, which is not (yet) the case here preflop at the time he reraises.


I still agree with the preflop reraise in this situation as it should buy the button, better define your hand postflop, and allow you to outplay a meek QQ or KK if an overcard flops. This hand is a great example of how this extra bet preflop makes your hand easier to play postflop -- once UTG shows strength a second time by betting the turn after he was raised on the flop, you have enough information to easily lay the jacks down.

preflop:


3-betting is borderline. I personally don't like J-J very much so I wouldn't do it unless I was pretty sure I would get the pot heads up. The problem is that, even if you think you are the mathematical favorite before the flop, JJ (as was seen here) is really hard to play once cards start coming down.


flop:

I don't see any problem with this. You have an overpair, you raise. If you get 3-bet, you worry.


turn:

I don't disagree with your play as much as a lot of the posters. There is a fair chance you are beat, but I would have expected UTG to 3-bet the flop with KK or AA because he knows you don't have a 4, and he would want to shut out MP (especially w/KK) who would then have to call 2 bets. I would fear 8-8. I know that you "shouldn't" raise UTG with it, but people do it all of the time. You described the player as average, and an average player in a 10-20 game does not adhere to strict positional raising standards, imo. By this same standard however, I may be overestimating his willingness to 3-bet AA or KK on the flop. I probably fold here because of the combination of UTG betting and a strong player calling. Even you you are not beat now, there is a good chance that one of the players who is drawing will catch. Continuing is not a huge mistake because of the size of the pot, however.


If you are going to call here I say you have to do exactly what you did. Raise and plan on checking the river. This is where your position really comes in handy. Raising is best because:


-If the turn is 3-bet you can fold. You are beaten, and you lose 2 BB (the same as calling the turn and river).


-If everyone calls and you are beaten, you lose 2BB.


-If you win the hand unimproved, you make the same number of bets as you would have if you had called the whole way.


-If you happen to spike a J, you win 3 additional BB. This is assuming the SB will not fold. If there is a chance he will fold for 2BB, that is another plus to raising.


-If SB and MP are drawing, they call bets here that they would not call on the river. Basically, what you hope to do by raising is take the river bet and make them pay it on the turn.


-The only negative to raising is when SB or MP catches a draw and leads on the river. If you had only called the turn, you would probably fold here, so you lose an extra bet. However, when they don't catch the winner gains both of their bets and they will probably hit their draws less than 50% of the time.


What's interesting about this raise is it increases UTG's EV more than it does yours, because he probably has the best chance of winning the hand. It is still worthwhile though.

For the reason the kings do raise the flop,

There are 2 explanaitions:


1) He is rightfully afraid the SB has aces.

2) He realizes the SB is a loose cannon, and he is looking to raise the turn, and does not want to discourage te SB from continuing to bet.


Dan Z.

mike, according to HPFAP, in a typical game you should only cold-call a raise from early position with a Category I or II hand. By inference I am assuming that they themselves would not raise under the gun in a typical, full-table limit hold'em game on anything less than a Category II hand unless they were trying to "vary their play" for some reason. In addition, Bob Ciaffone has published some starting hand guidelines for middle limit hold'em poker and he advocates raising under the gun with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK suited (Category I according to HPFAP) and TT, AQ suited, AJ suited, and AK (Category II according to HPFAP) and simply limping in with others except for AQ offsuit where he would raise about half the time and limp the other half. Lee Jones has even tighter raising requirements for an under the gun player as well as Lou Krieger (see his "start chart").

Jim, if you think its not the best hand then why call? if you think your beat then whats the difference whether you have jj's or 2's. if your gonna play it you have to 3 bet and get the button and eliminate the feild for the times your hand is good. the way your playing it your gonna bring more people in but not enough to justify a call most of the time to hit a set. unless your in a particularly loose game. would you call with dueces in this spot? my point is this. if the flop comes small your probably gonna continue here i'm assuming. but now by not eliminating your other opponents the low flop might hit them and it will put you in very sticky situations where even if your jacks are good now they will have a very hard time holding up with all the straglers in.

"if you think your hand is not good, why call?"


Because we are playing in a game with incomplete information and I don't know my hand is not good. Based on the information so far, it is possible one guy could have ace-king and the other guy could have a pair of tens or ace-queen suited. But it is also possible one of my two opponents could have a bigger pair. When faced with a situation like this the proper play is to call, not reraise or fold. Folding is an irreversible action and is almost certainly not right given your hand and the pot odds. Reraising is committing too much money on too little of a hand in this situation where you have a solid player raising under the gun and another good player cold-calling. Eliminating players does not help you in those cases where you do not have the best hand. It usually helps the guy with the best hand at your expense when, in fact, someone has a better hand. The problem is that we don't know exactly what the other two players have, we just know they have premium hands many of which are better than ours.


"what is the difference between jj and 22"?


Pocket jacks are a much stronger holding than pocket deuces. There are thousands of flops where my pocket jacks are an overpair to the board. There are no flops where pocket deuces can be an overpair. I don't have to always flop a set to win with pocket jacks but I do with pocket deuces. Now in this situation, if I flop an overpair and the same two players bet and raise, then I will probably fold since I am now more certain that I am playing two outs. But suppose I flop an overpair and both players check to me? Now I can play my hand as best and bet. Or suppose one player bets and the other folds? I can still play. I have no play with pocket deuces.


Here is a simple example. You are under the gun in a ten-handed limit hold'em game. You have pocket eights. Should you fold? Should you raise? Should you call? I think you should call. You have a decent hand and an interest in the pot but your hand is not strong enough to raise. Folding is wrong because you may be folding the best hand. Raising is wrong because you are committing too much money in a situation where you could be up against better hands and your position is bad. Based on the information available to you, calling is the best option although no option will be correct all the time.


It is important to get away from this "binary thinking", that is viewing everything as a raise or fold situation. In general, the more money you commit to a pot preflop, the better the hand you need. This is both important and elementary.

you say that if they bet and raise on the flop you will probably fold. why? do you really think the 2nd guy has qq or better and did not reraise preflop in the perfect spot to do so? but if the 1st bets and other guy mucks you like you hand. i believe this is incorrect thinking. you will have the 2nd guy beat most of the time so his raise should not scare you. the only guy you should be fearing is the original raiser regardless what the 2nd guy does.


before that, you say folding is an irreversible action given the pot odds? what pot odds. you don't have odds to play for a set here and most of the time will not get them. by just calling you make it where you almost have to hit a set to win because your letting to many people in cheap here. you must reraise and clear out the button and the blinds!


imo, what's important and elementary is giving yourself the best chance to win preflop by making the right decisions. there are times to just call preflop in a shorthanded pot. not many, but there are times. but this is not one of them. jj's are strong enough to rerasie in this spot!

Preflop there are many players who will not 3-bet with QQ. Some players like Mason Malmuth will frequently not 3-bet even with KK or AA because they do not want to "give away the strength of their hand". I agree that preflop, an early cold-caller would usually 3-bet with AA, KK, or QQ. But once the flop comes, and it is bet then raised, the latter action is more significant. It is a mistake to put someone on a hand based on preflop betting action and then stubbornly refuse to change that assessment based on more recent betting action. The "2nd guy" raising is very bad for you and should not be ignored. First, it is now costing you twice as much money to play on. Second, it could get raised again by the original bettor. Third, the likelihood of the raiser having a better hand than you has increased not deceased or remain unchanged.


As I stated in my previous post, there will be a reasonable percentage of the time when your hand will happen to be best before the flop but you can be easily overtaken once the flop comes. But you do not need to flop a set to win in the percentage of cases where your hand happens to be best. Flopping an overpair is also good.


You are not letting people in cheap. The button has to call two bets cold and the blinds have to put in additional money to play as well. They may well fold whether you 3-bet or not. Again,if you are up against a bigger pair, which is quite possible giving the players who are raising and cold-calling, you will be sorry you 3-bet.


Giving yourself "the best chance to win" is not necessarily correct. Increasing your chances of winning has to be balanced against the increased cost. Hypothetically, if you could increase your chances of winning a pot by 1% if you would spend an extra bet, would you do it? It would depend upon the size of the pot, but in most cases the pot would never be large enough to spend anything just to increase your chances of winning it by such a small amount. In fact, in some cases when you have the second best hand, you want inferior hands in not out.

"there are many players that will not 3 bet with AA,KK, and QQ in this spot."


almost nobody would flat call in that spot. the percentage would be so low thats its a joke to even consider. and even the people that would, they wouldn't do it all the time. maybe once in a very blue moon for decption purposes which would make the percentage even smaller.


"once the flop comes and it is bet and raised, the latter action is more significant. its a mistake to put someone on a hand based on preflop actions and stubbornly refuse to change based on recent action."


if you agree with me that the 2nd guy most of the time won't have jj's beat in this spot preflop, then don't you think that you would have him beat on the flop. sure its possible he hit a set on the flop, but that won't happen enough to assume he has that. and alot of people would smooth call with aset in this spot. he's more likey to have 88's, 99's, 10's. maybe even AK or AQ now bluffing hoping the flop missed everybody. maybe a flush draw. only thing that has you beat is a set.

i forgot one.


"hypothetically, if you could increase your chances by 1% for one small bet would you do it?"


i believe your chances are increased by alot more than 1% by 3 betting in this spot.

I don't believe a solid player in middle position as described in this problem would cold-call another solid player who raised under-the-gun having only pocket eights or nines. In fact, according to John Feeney's essay (Do you pass the A-Q test? from his book "Inside The Poker Mind") he should even fold ace-queen offsuit in this situation. He would not cold-call an under-the-gun raise with a hand he would not raise with himself under-the-gun. It is also unlikely that he would raise a flop bet with just overcards in a reraised pot when led into with a three-bettor yet to act. If he was drawing to a flush, he would not want to raise when he is drawing. He wants players in not out when he has a flush draw unless he feels that raising will result in everyone magically folding which is extremely unlikely.

Jim,


Is John Feeny playing the hand? yes, i agree 100% that AQ off is a muck here. though alot of somewhat solid players will call w/AQs,10's,99's,Aks,AK off, and maybe even AQ off. in fact i think these hands are alot more likely than AA,KK, or QQ.


"it also is unlikely that he would raise a flop bet with just overcards in reraised pot when led into with a 3 better yet to act." "if he was drawing to flush, he would not raise when drawing. he wants players in not out when drawing. unless he thinks everybody will magically fold which is highly unlikely."


i'll cover these two statemants together. you have misread my statement. i was referring to the action if it was played your way, not mine. and it actually reinforces my opinion to 3 bet preflop. because i agree with you that he would not raise with overs if you 3 bet it. you would have defined the hand more. the fact that you didn't 3 bet players will get frisky in middle position with hands like AK,99's,10's,jj's,AQs,88's, and maybe AQ off becuase you didn't show strength preflop. gain, same with flush draw i believe rasieing on the flop with flush draw would be correct for a few reasons. 1)if he can force you out to give himself more outs w/his overs.2)if he gets you out, he only had 1 player to contend with and can with this hand without improvement by the raiser magically folding AK,AQ,maybe AJs. if he call thats okay too you have outs to beta him, and maybe even overs because he correctly got you out with a flop raise!

I now understand and think you are correct in that if you don't 3-bet preflop, the flop raise by the middle player has much less significance. Clearly, reraising preflop does have the advantage of keeping someone with an inferior hand from moving you off when undercards flop. Perhaps I am overly concerned about the presence of this middle player.


With regard to the AQ test and Feeney's essay, I have waffled back and forth about the merits of what John Feeney is saying. What I am finding out is that even the so-called "solid players" will surprise you sometimes by raising in early position with hands other than a big pocket pair or two big cards headed by an ace. For example, Mason Malmuth posted a hand he played where he raised under the gun with nine-eight suited. Against players like this, it would be a mistake to fold AQ offsuit. I think it is a mistake to fold AQ offsuit against typical players and many "solid" players who like to "vary their play" as in Mason's case. As you state, how many players play as "solidly (??)" as John Feeney discusses? I do but I am beginning to wonder if anyone else does.


Good discussion and I think you won this one.

I enjoyed debating with you! It was a good discussion. Btw, i like the jj's alot more than AQ off. If you get a good flop with jj's. A set or rags. i think its alot better than hitting an ace w,AQ. Because against a solid player he may be holding AK, and it will be harder to release short handed like this. I would fold to this players raise with AQ off. But like you said other "solid" players don't play as solidly as John Feeney or you. They should, but they don't. Take care!