Was I on tilt?

This hand kind of bothers me because I thought I played it ok, but I had been taking beats for a few hours before (actually just folding garbage mostly), so my judgement may have been a little clouded. This was from a 5-10 online game. I posted it in the middle limit forum because the game was significantly tougher than the average 5-10 you'd find in a casino. (I'm not saying it was tough, just tougher than the average 5-10...it played more like a 10-20 or 15-30)


7 players seated.


I have Qd 8d on the BB.


Folds to the button who raises. SB calls, I call.


My thinking: This is a steal raise. I have played with the player on the button before and I know he would raise with any two reasonable cards here. I have been folding my blinds a lot and don't want to make him think it's automatic. Once the SB calls (who is not a terribly good player) I am getting 5-1.


Flop:


Jh 9d 6c


SB checks, I check, button bets. SB folds, I call.


My thinking: I am getting 7-1. I have a gut shot and an overcard. I'm not in good shape, but my opponent's bet doesn't really mean too much because he (correctly) will always bet here, so the 8's may even be outs. If I call here, there is a good chance he will check behind me on the turn if he doesn't have anything, giving me another chance to catch. (He probably shouldn't, but a lot of people do.)


Turn:


Jh 9d 6c 5d


Obviously, I'm not going anywhere now, but I decide to take it a step furthur and check-raise semi-bluff. My opponent is a strong player and should be capable of making a laydown. I could just bet, but it doesn't show nearly as much strength, plus if it works i get an extra 10 bucks. Even if he has a good hand and calls, I have 9 outs to a flush, and 6 more to a straight. My queens also may be good (against something like KJ), so I figure I have between 15-18 outs if he doesn't fold. Of course, he calls the check raise or I wouldn't be posting this; I'd just be sitting here thinking about how clever I am.


River:


Jh 9d 6c 5d 3c


Oops. I bet (I think this is obvious, I am betting $10 to win $80 and I think it is very probable that if he were also drawing, the 3c didn't do it for him). He calls and shows Ah6h.


If this were just your average weak-loose 5-10 player I would just take it as a sign that my EV at this table is better than I thought, but since I think he is one of the better players on the site i play on this bothers me. Am I missing something or did he just make a bad call? My read was right and my outs were good. If I had his cards in the reverse situation, I would have mucked them immediately when I was check raised. Even if he knows there's a chance I am semibluffing, he also has to know that I could be slowplaying a set, (if he has no respect for me he could think I just made a set), or I could have 7-8 for the nuts, etc...


Please let me know if I was way out of line or if I just got unlucky because a good player decided to make one of those random loose calls Skalansky talks about....


Note: He was not calling me down because he thoguht I was steaming. I had been folding everything because I was getting garbage, and when I got marginal hands they were obviously no good given the boards and the action.

tilt? no... slight lean? maybe...


a couple thoughts


I think your thought process was ok if you REALLY thought the button had trash. But he had a hand for this spot. He did'nt need a pair to beat you at the river, did he? So your read of the situation was off. When one is running bad it's just too dang easy to start (unconsciencely) thinking up reasons to get in there and make things happen or justify to yourself a marginal move. I think your play on that hand is best left for nights things are going your way, not the opposite. Even then, you might still want to say screw it, let him have my blind.


But don't get me wrong, I think you make a legitimate case for the way you played your hand, but maybe there are better spots to use the four big bets lost on this hand.


best wishes JMHO

With your thought process, I imagine you have an enormous variance to your bankroll. This is a very marginal hand and probably a big time loser to a button raiser in the long run.


Calling preflop was fine, but you seem to be looking for reasons to play afterward. I think you were bored.

I didn't think the button had complete trash, I just realized his raise didn't necessarily mean a hand I should really fear like AQ or something.


What I realize now:


I should muck that hand before the flop. It is a marginal call but one thing about marginal calls is they lead to other marginal calls...so it is better to make them later in the hand.


Yes Drew, I was definitely bored. And good call about the variance thing, I do have an above average variance (not ridiculous though). I expect it because I like to play shorthanded, and I tend to get a little playful at times.

why would you think he wouldn't have AQ. more likely he has something that either dominates you or is a better hand than yours.

First of all, I agree that I should have folded.


Note: I'm just going to leave the SB out of my analysis for now.


I didn't say he couldn't have A-Q, I said his raise doesn't necessarily mean he has something like A-Q (and A-Q was just an example of a good hand that puts me in a bad spot, don't take it so literally, sheesh). He is reasonably agressive, the game is shorthanded, he is in steal position, and I fold my blind a fair amount when raised (except this time apparently), so his lower limits for raising are probably about the following or worse (this could be totatlly off in structure but I estimate the number of hands he'd raise with is pretty close or greater, I'd like to see other people's thoughts about what hands are possible for the normal semi-agressive steal raiser):


1. any ace

2. Kxs

3. K9o or K8o

4. Q-7s or worse

5. Q-9o

6. J-8s

7. J-9o

8. T-9o or T-8o, 9-8o

9. T-8s maybe 9-7s

10. any pocket pair

11. suited connectors down to mabye 5-6


and he is proabably correct to raise with these hands. I am getting 3-1 on my call, so I don't need to have the best hand. I just need to have a hand that isn't a major dog. If he has K-7s, A4o, 2-2, etc..., I am not in terrible shape, and against J-8s, etc..., I am in great shape. I agree that I shouldn't play this hand here, but I also think it's not that far off what I should be playing. The reason i fold here is, imo, is not because he his cards are so much better, it's because my hand may become tough to play, he has position on me, AND the SB called. Q-8s against A-6s is not a 3-1 dog, not even close.


If I think group I-III every time I get raised from the button I'm is serious trouble.

imo, your in trouble not thinking good hand. sure it won't always be group1-3 all the time. but would he not raise with good hands? everybody assumes that button has nothing when he raises because he has the button. sure when its A6o against your q8s its not a huge dog, but still a favorite. but then when you add in his hands that are real hands against your Q8 over a long period of time he will have a big edge. especially the times you he has a Q with better kicker or 8 with better kicker. the player you mentioned has a wide range of raising hands, so its not as disasterous. but most people's range will not be this wide. and remember, he has position on you. so he has better hands for the most part, and better position. where is your edge? a huge mistake that alot of players make is that they must defend there blind. usually out of ego. sometimes just a good excuse to gamble. i'm only telling you this to help you btw!

and he is not correct to raise with a large number of those hands! a decent range would be something like 910s,j10o (maybe if the blinds are very tight) and above! also depends on who the blinds are btw. good luck!