Another bottom two pair

Here's a hand that I think I could have won by manipulating the pot.


A somewhat tight 9 person 10-20 game has loosened up a little bit, I'd say 3-4 players per hand average.


Everyone (five players) limp to me in the cutoff (?!?). I call with QJo. Would anyone raise here to try and buy the button? I didn't think it would work very often since the button wasn't particularly tight and there is a ton of $ in the pot already.


Button, SB limp, BB checks, 9 players, $90 in the pot.


Flop comes AQJ rainbow. 7 players check to me (?!?).

I bet. Is this a mistake? This bet probably won't fold any players, but there's no way I can give a free card to people and let them pick up a flush draw on the turn. I figure even bare gutshots would call my flop bet and I was hoping somebody was planning on check-raising.


Well, nobody check-raised but the button and four others called. Six players, $150.


Turn is a 6 and puts a flush draw on board. Four checks to me again. I bet, button and one other player call. Three players, $210.


River is another 6 making the board AQJ66. Checked to me, I check, button bets.


I'll post the results later in the day, I'm particularly interested in the flop play.


Do people think it's better to:


1. Bet the flop and hope either the button raises or someone else check-raises, or


2. Check the flop and hope someone ahead of me bets the turn so I can raise if the turn card isn't threatening.

When there isn't a shot to steal the blinds or set up a steal on the flop, I don't think its ever wise to raise with something like QJo.


On the flop, I would bet every time. As you say, someone might be waiting to check raise, and you should be happy to make it 3 bets right now and scare out single pair gutshot draws now or on the turn.


The play of checking a flop you like so you can raise on a later street is best for very large pots (something like 20+ bets preflop), when your opponents will be correct to call the turn with only 4 outs otherwise. You should also hold a hand which probably best right now, but is easy to overtake (something like an overpair or top pair big kicker). In those situations, the pot has gotten so large that it is more important to protect the equity you already have in the pot than it is to win more money on future betting rounds. You are also helping them to make a mistake by calling two bets, when it otherwise would not be a mistake for them to call a single bet on the turn.


In your case, anyone who calls the turn with only 4 outs will already be making a mistake to call your bet, unless many players call the flop and turn with him.


Bad river card, obviously. If the button is capable of a bluff here and the other guy folds, you might want to check him out, but its hard to find a hand which you could beat that he would bet, other than a stone cold bluff. It all depends if you can get a good read on him.

Coilean's answer is excellent. So who is Coilean and what and where does he/she play?

Coilean is a guy who plays in the St. Louis area 10-20 hold'em/omaha8 and lower games. He aspires to play the 20-40 hold'em game, but doesn't deem it wise right now with his $3K bankroll. He sometimes (rarely) ventures forth to play games in the Tunica, Kansas City and Chicago areas. In his spare time he putters with computers, reads scifi novels and poker texts, jogs around the park near his home, and plays strategy board games and watches movies with his friends.