too passive with queens?

fifteen-thirty. I have black queens in the cutoff. UTG limps, three others limp (unusual for the game I'm in), and since all four limpers are fair-to-good players, I limp. Button and SB fold. (SB folded!?)


Flop is K85 with two hearts. UTG bets, next guy calls, fold, fold, and I fold.


What you do think?


Sincerely, sucker

Sucker,


You should raise 100% of the time with queens from the cutoff seat after limpers. From this seat there is no need to disguise your hand (since many hands should be raised from the cutoff) and this is one of the top three hands in this spot.


Given that the pot is small and you are facing a protected bet and caller with no draw and a probable king I would fold post flop. IMO it isn't close against typical players but lately I seem to be a bit of a folder so take my advice with a grain.


Regards,


Rick

Right on the money Rick. Odds are almost there to call for the set on turn or river but not quite. And he should have raised preflop with surely the best starters and a lot of limpers killing the aces and kings. But it was a cheap fold and could have cost him a lot, so all's well that ends well.

"fifteen-thirty. I have black queens in the cutoff. UTG limps, three others limp (unusual for the game I'm in), and since all four limpers are fair-to-good players, I limp. Button and SB fold. (SB folded!?)


Flop is K85 with two hearts. UTG bets, next guy calls, fold, fold, and I fold.


What you do think?"


I think it's a raising situation before the flop, and I think maybe I was the guy in the small blind. :-)


Tommy

You are getting 7:1 and are very unlikely to get raised and have good position after the flop. The caller probably doesn't have a King or he'd have raised. This is an automatic call against players who do not necissarily need a King to bet and are also very likely to check the turn unless then DO have a king or better (i.e. they are "take one stab at it" types).


If you are inclined to give it up that easily after the flop then your flat call before the flop makes more sense: at least you played the hand with a coherent strategy.


I don't understand your statement about calling because the players are good players. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think this means you are intimidated and paranoid and if so, you need to find a better game.


- Louie

If the players are good isn't this all the more reason to raise preflop. With a raise you may have gotten checked to and you could have taken a free card or bet out.

If you're only losing one small bet with pocket queens, you are indeed too passive.

for limping with queens ws to be able to raise on the flop should I have an overpair, in other words to give myself a better chance to win the pot. With four limpers I figured I would be making the pot too big to bet people out of later. {Then again, if these guys were good, they would've bet their hands into me anyway on the flop even after I had raised preflop, and I would still get to raise with my overpair. So my thinking was flawed there.)


With aces or kings I would of course raise preflop since I give up too much by NOT raising. With jacks I would generally limp for the reasons above. Queens I figured was close either way.

But from what I gather, the general consensus is that by not raising preflop with those queens I gave up too much value, more than what could be gained back by the playing advantages I would have postflop. So to sum up, raising in my spot generally would have been the better play, big surprise /images/biggrin.gif


Thanks guys, sucker

Andy,


I had to think about it a little, but I agree with you. I never really thought of it that way. Holding queens preflop in a limit game, there are virtually no situations in which you would lose only one small bet or less. At least one raise/cold call is always a good (or at worst very debatable) play.


sucker

I think your thinking is actually correct. It's true that you will show a profit by raising with the queens before the flop but it also gives you somestrategic advantages not to, and this includes folding when the flop is bad. Against players who are playing reasonably well as the ones you describe, just calling is certainly a viable strategy. If on the other hand they play poosrly, just calling will be giving up too much in my opinion.

The argument for calling based on the strategic postflop adavantages that calling brings is stronger when the fella is on the button. That is, when considering whether to call with QQ preflop from the cut-off, you have to factor in that you may be allowing the button to limp which will therefore not give you last position in the postflop betting rounds. Plus, of course, calling makes the sb and bb rather difficult to read postflop.

you have to raise with queens there. you have the best hand, you would like to try to protect it and get anybodelse behind you and the blinds out. this forming into a big pot that that might be hard. but thats okay too. build a bigger pot with the best hand.

Don't forget that K-x-x is one of the best flops to bluff or semi-bluff bet at from early position in an unraised pot. I would not assume the bettor has a king, and if the intervening has a king, why isn't he raising? Against the right players, I would raise here (but then again I would have raised preflop). At least it was cheap.