top pair, strong kicker, pure garbage?

Unknown seemingly aggresive player limps UTG.

Unknown player limps in late position. I am on button with KJo.

SB calls, BB checks.


Flop comes Jc8c4h. I do not have Kc.


SB bets. BB folds. UTG calls. Late limper calls. I debate a call or fold. I call. Is this correct, close, or terrible? Anyone like raising here (I didn't, but that doesn't mean anything)?


Turn is a seemingly stress-free 9c. SB bets, UTG calls, late limper calls. I fold. Any objections?


Results to follow. Thanks for any advice. This reminded me of the example in HPFAP, except this time I have the button and can close the betting. The pot is also offering me nice odds, or is it?


Dan Z.

I certainly don't like your fold on the turn. By now there is a pretty big pot and it is certainly not clar that you don't have the best hand, and even if you are beaten by something like a 98 you have a bunch of outs.

I would definitely raise the flop. I think you are likely to have the best hand and, had you raised, you would likely be checked to on the turn. You can then check if you don't like the turn card and get to see the river cheaply. If you are

reraised, you at least have a better idea or where you are,

and can make your decision to fold or call. I know that

this play is textbook, but it seems appropriate.


If you are not willing to raise with this hand/flop, then

why play the hand? I would not be afraid of the suited

flop, you've should charge any draws which MIGHT be out there.

Dan Z.


I am often on a different side then other posters on questions such as this so I won’t look at the other answers for now.


On the flop I would call but folding can’t be bad. You face a dangerous board, no draw (for you), and a lead bet and two callers in front of you. You are usually beat or in position to get beat. In your favor is the fact that the pot contains several bets and things could slow down on the turn with a blank or improve for you with a non-club king or jack. I don’t like a raise since it won’t drive anyone out (unless the lead better three bets – then how would you like your raise!).


You were kidding about the turn 9c not being stressful. Your hand is now a lot worse. The lead better either already was ahead of you or he made his hand. The callers in between could be weaker but often they have a made hand (such as the nut flush draw) and don’t want to drive out players behind with a raise. I would fold. Note that there is no card on the river that would allow you to raise a bet here and even the jack or king would indicate a tough call. Why go any further?


You wrote: “This reminded me of the example in HPFAP, except this time I have the button and can close the betting. The pot is also offering me nice odds, or is it?”


Closing the betting is great but it helps to have a strong long shot to draw to. Having many opponents still active in the pot creates the “nice odds”. But you have the type of hand that will usually finish second or third best. I think Sklansky’s horse race concept applies here.


Regards,


Rick

I would have raised the flop (but then again, if I was going to play, I would also have raised preflop). Since both callers did not raise (on the flop), I would figure my K-J has them beat. Small blind would probably bet any Jack and maybe only has a draw, or perhaps something like A-8 with the Ac.


On the turn, I would not fold. Again, no one has raised. Rather than assume they're trapping, it's more likely they don't have a strong enough hand to raise. You're getting 8:1. There is some chance that your Jack is still good and, if not, you can improve on the river. Yeah, lots of cards could be ugly on the river, but I'd take the 8:1 on the button. Your hand is not pure garbage.


The hands can get tough to play, for me at least, when I start out call-call on the button.

unless the flop was actually all clubs and you misposted it, your play doesnt make any sense to me.


if you would have showed proper aggression with a raise on the flop then you would know better where you stand on the turn. it is correct to charge four flush flop semibluffs an extra bet. why are you considering a fold on the flop??


you need to see that someone could easily bet that turn with JT.

On the flop, I would raise having top pair, excellent kicker. The lead bettor is probably leading with a worse jack and the other players are calling on draws. It is too easy for your hand to be best. Failing to raise puts you in a difficult situation if a scare card comes off on the turn and you get bet into. Note that if you raise the flop bet and then get bet into when a scare card turns up you have an easier fold. Given the way you played it, I am unsure about your fold on fourth although it may be right.

This is a spot I don't get into because I raise before the flop and that changes everything.


Tommy

1. why wouldnt you raise preflop? it seems that you want to knock the blinds out here if you can.


2. On this flop it seems that you have an easy raise. There is only a draw and unless you know that one of the limpers before you would always limp with QQ or better (and I recently played against three players like this) you almost definitely have the best hand. This is where not raising preflop really hurts you read.


3. it would be a lot easier to fold here if you raised teh flop.


This wasnt the real Dan Z. was it? :-)


Pat

pre-flop:


With an UTG limper, I do not see my hand as strong enough to raise with. I might raise 2 late limpers. I do not see how raising helps this hand pre-flop. If I were suited, I would usually raise.


On the flop, I was confident that UTG did not have a jack. If they did not have a jack, they either have a draw or have a big hand. I did not know if SB has a flush draw, straight draw, or a jack.


The late limper was hard to read, I did not rule aout a weak jack, but thought they most likely had a draw.


I thought that raising this flop was silly. I thought I would keep my position and raise the turn or fold, depending on the action. My raise here makes the turn MORE confusing unless I bet the turn, and I did not want to be forced to bet the turn.

All 4 players will call my raise, unless I am beat and will get 3 bet.


On the turn, the SB most likely has me. But even if they do not, I had a VERY hard time finding a hand that UTG can call with here that I beat. The only hand I could figure was TT with the ten of clubs, and A8 off with the ace of clubs. I thought this was too thin a chance to continue with.


The 9 may have made the late limper a straight or 2 pair. I did not like this overcall. I thought the chances my hand was best was pretty small, and the river was only going to make it worse.


Yes Patrick, this was the real Dan Z. I do not often make these folds, but I thought my hand was weak in this situation. I certainly don't feel that my hand warrants a raise on the flop, both in terms of its dubious value and the strategic implications for the last 2 rounds.


Even though the pot was offering me decent odds, I figured I will be unable to bet the river if I am checked to, but will have to call, making my "odds" about half what they appear. I also may not be able to overcall the river, depending on the card.


Here was the last round and the results:


River a blank. The SB bet the last round, and both opponents called.


SB had 2c4c for the straight. UTG had red pocket kings (?). The late player had J9 for 2 pair. I had only 1 out on the flop, and none on the turn.


I posted this hand because I questioned my play and wasn't sure if I was reading it right or just got lucky here.


Thanks for the replies.


Dan Z.

Dan,


In the response above my thinking was very similar to yours and it turns out we were both on the opposite sides of the fence from all the other posters. “Results” seem to vindicate us but we both know that should not matter.


I’ve been having a tough year at holdem and may be seeing a snake under every rock. If so I may be developing a tendency to undervalue my hand and position. Let’s hope this gets some further analysis given that the thread is now a little buried.


Regards,


Rick


PS If the SB had 4c-2c, he made a flush, not a straight.