Nothing more to say. Enjoy, fellas.

[Gamblor]

http://www.weirdchicken.com/jmh/images/attacks_thwarted.gif

Source: IDF (http://www1.idf.il/dover/site/mainpage.asp?sl=HE&id=22&docid=16703)

[mosta]

Hmm. Interesting. So the average number of attempts has, what? tripled? That's "peace"? Isn't it only a matter of time before they find another approach? Of course the most effective way to eliminate suicide attacks by Palestinians would be to put them all in gas chambers, wouldn't it?

[Zeno]

I like the graphics. Should not the one box say: Start of Security Fence Construction? instead of 'Security Fence Construction', as this is an ongoing endevor and the fence did not materialize intact overnight.

-Zeno

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm. Interesting. So the average number of attempts has, what? tripled?

[/ QUOTE ]
Many intelligent people would say that there would be an increase in crime reported if police patrols were increased. Essentially with more cops out there, more crimes are being thwarted or more arrested are being made.

So if Israeli forces beefed up their security and patrols, it is highly likely that more attacks are being thwarted. You will notice that the number of attacks have decreased, however the number of "arrests" have increased. Thats how security works.

[nicky g]

Build all the fences you want. Just build them on your own land.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Build all the fences you want. Just build them on your own land.

[/ QUOTE ]

They conquered the land. It's theirs now. That's the way history works.

[MMMMMM]

Fence the whole place off and give them a country--fenced off, of course--since that obviously what is necessary to avoid undue bloodshed.

[MMMMMM]

Yes.

Also the British gave the Jews some land and gave the Palestinians other land. Most living Palestinians today have never even set foot on the land they claim a "right to return" to, so it's just so much hooey.

As I've said before, the Palestinians need to learn to get over it and get on with their lives--just as every other "dispossessed" peoples have done throughout history (and most of today's Palestinians aren't even truly "dispossessed", as they weren't even alive at the time Israel was created).

[jdl22]

I disagree. I don't think they need to get over it. I think they can and should fight for land they feel is rightfully theirs as should the Israelis. In the US for example many native groups continue to fight for land and rights they feel the US government took from them. In some cases they actually are able to win some of it back. Telling them they need to get over it will simply make them even more angry about the situation and dig in a little more for the fight. If you're trying to get people to be more reasonable telling them to get over it is a good path to failure.

The view that wronged people should "get over it" is a dangerous one. For example, what would you think if France told the US government that we should just get over the September 11 attacks. We would permanently change the name of French fries and bread. If you know a girl that has been raped and she has intimacy issues you would probably do well not to ask her to get over it.

What they should do (and we should be able to agree on) is change their method. Looking at it from a purely utilitarian point of view their method is simply not working. When you add the tragic element it is more clear.

[MMMMMM]

Insisting on a "right of return" is counterproductive. Furthermore, they SHOULD just get over it and get on with building industry, improving their education, becoming professionals, making money, etc. etc. etc. Someone needs to tell them that--because they are wasting ALL their energy (and young lives) tilting at windmills since they can never win this war.

From a purely selfish perspective, they should be working to better their lot instead of beating their heads against an iron wall. Instead of trying to make lemonade from their lemon, they are putting arsenic in it. Instead of trying to get richer, they are impoverishing themselves. Instead of moving on in life they are brooding over something that took place over 2 generations ago. Instead of living, they are dying. And all because they won't let go and move on with their lives and future.

At some point, obsession becomes highly self-destructive. Their culture today has become the very embodiment of a sick obsession with an unattainable goal.

[Cyrus]

"The British gave the Jews some land and gave the Palestinians other land."

False. The British only made a silly "declaration". They did not give anything to anyone.

"Most living Palestinians today have never even set foot on the land they claim a "right to return" to, so it's just so much hooey."

This is equally applicable to generations of Jews and their Holy Land. Equally "hooey", huh?..

"The Palestinians need to learn to get over it and get on with their lives--just as every other "dispossessed" peoples have done throughout history."

What about the Jews of the so-called Diaspora? Should they too have gotten "over it"? (Ah, the predicament of arbitrariness in logic.)

"Most of today's Palestinians aren't even truly "dispossessed", as they weren't even alive at the time Israel was created."

Well, that puts an end to all arguments for national liberation struggles, I guess. You convinced me! Unless most of today's Kurds were alive at the time they were dispossessed, they have no right to claim anything!...

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MMMMMM]

I never claimed that the primary reason the Jews had a right to a homeland was because of their ancestral home: I stated repeatedly they had the right primarily because of all the PIGS throughout history (including modern history) who oppressed them, and because modern Arabs continued to oppress them and do so to even this day. The Jews needed a refuge from the primitive and bloodthirsty mobs of Russia, Europe and the Middle East. Today, the primary concentration of anti-Jewish bloodthirsty mobs is
in the Middle East.

The Arabs rioted against them and chased them around and out of Arab lands for the most part. So the Jews finally got legally assigned a part of Palestine, and the Arabs got the rest. That should be the end of it. Why do the Palestinians need ALL of Israel? (and why do the Arabs need ALL of the Middle East?) Answer: they don't. Since they can't share peacefully together they are going to have to share separately. By the way, the Arabs' share is of the Middle East about 90,000% of the Jews' share.

It seems you are also ignoring Dynasty's point. They lost. And if it weren't for the USA restraining Israel, they probably would have lost a lot harder.

Time to move on--except for those too sick to look to the future, who prefer to dwell and live in the past--thus burying both the present and future.

I don't know much about the Kurdish situation and suspect it is neither parallel nor highly relevant to the discussion at hand.

[Gamblor]

This is equally applicable to generations of Jews and their Holy Land. Equally "hooey", huh?..

Ah but how did they acquire the land they went to? They bought it.

Not with blood, with money.

[Cyrus]

C > "This is equally applicable to generations of Jews and their Holy Land."

Gamblor > "Ah but how did [the Jews] acquire the land they went to? They bought it. Not with blood, with money."

Can't you even stay consistent for one second? You are now arguing that, historically, a people that has bought a piece of land has more of a legitimate national claim over that land than if it "merely" had historical claims on it?? Would that mean that the original Zionists laid their claims on the Holy Land by showing off their bank accounts and real estate contracts ??

You are fantastically fluid in your logic. Keep 'em coming.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ACPlayer]

How about stretching the graph back to a few years before Sharon made his inflammatory remarks during his election campaign.

[ACPlayer]

You believe in a quitter philosophy?

[ACPlayer]

Today, the primary concentration of anti-Jewish bloodthirsty mobs is

Is that why Jews chose the middle east to steal land from?

USA restraining Israel

Now that is really funny. The pattern has been the Israel kills innocent Palestinians, the US says both sides must show restraint now, Israel kills innocent Palestinians.

Time to move on--except for those too sick to look to the future, who prefer to dwell and live in the past--thus burying both the present and future.

So, if this was the 1940's you would be saying this about the Zionists? I think not.

I don't know much

There are four words in your post I agree with!

[Gamblor]

Why won't you just read?

When the descendants of the exiled Jews from the 6th century came back, they purchased the land from willing Arab sellers. If there were no willing sellers, there were no Jews.

When the descendants of the exiled Arabs from the 20th century came back, there were no willing Jewish sellers and as such could not purchase the land. There are no willing sellers, thus there are no Arabs.

[MMMMMM]

^

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Time to move on--except for those too sick to look to the future, who prefer to dwell and live in the past--thus burying both the present and future.


[/ QUOTE ]

D'oh!

That's almost all of 'em on every side!

al

[nicky g]

Rubbish. Only a small proportion of Palestine was owned by Jews prior to the establishment of Israel, and ownership does not give on national rights. If Zoroastrians abought up some land in London they would not be entitled to found a new state called Zoroastria there.

[nicky g]

"They conquered the land. It's theirs now. That's the way history works."

How history has worked is not a guide to how things should be done today. It is not there land according to any world government other than Israel and it is most definitely not their land under interntational law. And while the control that that land they should give citizenship to the people who live there.

[nicky g]

You;re talking about the right of return and Palestinians who don't live there any more when the wall is being built on the land of people who live there now.

[Cyrus]

You are so deep. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif