98s on the button

Hi,


Please comment on the following hand. I think this was a weird hand as you will see. I did get lucky and I did suck out by winning it. Still, I would like to see how anyone would have played it. I may have made a mistake on the 2 first rounds.


I have 9h8h on the button. There are 2 limpers to the cut-off who raises. I call (mistake?). Frankly, I had never seen a limp reraise yet, I felt the SB would call as he was loose and there was a good chance the BB would call as well. Plus I have the best position. The SB, BB and everyone called. 12 SB and 6 players.


FLOP: Kh Tc 8s


I am ready to fold when everyone checks to me!!! Well, most likely I did not have the best hand but I felt that with 2 backdoor draws, a pair and this big pot, I could maybe swing at it and get free card on the turn. I bet (second mistake?). SB folds and BB check-raises me. Two cold call and preflop raiser folds. So there was 19SB in the pot once it came back to me. I called (third mistake?). 10 BB and 4 players.


TURN: Kc


The BB checks! (huh?), the two other players check to me. Well now, let's represent the king again and bet (I was planning to fold or at least check, it was just that the pot was pretty big and the turn was a second king). BB reluctantly folds (I knew I had really screwed him and he was going to get pissed when he'd see my hand). One caller and other player folds. OK, I'm beat, I'm done now, probably by a T. 12BB and 2 players.


RIVER: 8


Mmmh, I made the boat. MY opponent checks and I bet, he calls.


He had ATo. I, of course, got lucky but considering the size of the pot, my image and the play of the hand, I felt the bets on the flop and turn were justified.


All comments are appreciated.


Thanks,


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)

First, I would have folded preflop, but you expected that I guess.


With this kind of board in a raised pot, someone must have hit someway IMO. I think there's almost no chance you will pick up the pot here with a bet. The only reason I can see here to bet is to get a free turn card, but in this situation I dont think you're ahead, quite likely to get check-raised (since limpers expect cut-off to bet), and IF you're ahead you probably have a lot of draws against you. Sumarizing: I would check the flop, hope to pick up flush or straight draw, make trips or two pair.


On the turn, given the way you played it, I agree with your bet. You could get a T or 8 to fold.


Riverplay is obvious IMO.


Regards

The preflop call is correct.


Why did you say you were "ready to fold" if somone bet? That would be a big mistake.


I have no problem with the flop bet.


The bet on the turn will usually backfire but your reward versus risk ratio makes it a reasonable play.

Actually, I liked the way you played it.

Preflop, I think you should fold nine-eight suited for two bets despite being on the button in a multi-handed pot. Calling two bets cold damages your implied odds plus it opens up the possibility of having to call further raises. However, it is probably close.


On the flop, I think it is bad poker to be betting into a large field of five opponents with all three cards in the playing zone having only bottom pair and some remote backdoor possibilities despite everyone checking to you. You are very unlikely to win the pot outright by betting and you will frequently get check-raised given that board. When this happens you are paying two full bets to take off a card when you could have gotten a free card. Of course, you call when raised given the pot odds.


I like your turn bet when everyone checks to you. You are representing trip kings and might well win the pot outright against three opponents who checked to you. I think the guy who called you with ace-ten offsuit was playing weak poker since he is drawing dead when you have the hand you are representing. Even if you are drawing to a straight or a flush, he will still lose a significant percentage of the time. He has to find you with a straight-draw or a flush-draw or a hand like the one you happen to have in order for his call to be correct. Overall, I think his call is a long-term money loser even though it happen to be right on this hand at this stage.

I dont know if this is a reply to my post or Nicolas' post, but I didnt say "I was ready to fold" in my post, so it's probably a reply to Nicolas' post.


I did say I would have folded preflop. You said a call is correct. Is this a no-brainer call, or a marginal one, and do you only give up a very small profit by folding?


Regards

Well, I said that I was "ready to fold if someone bet" since I expected everyone to check to the raiser who was on my immediate right. Me calling after he bet would have meant that I was opening myself to a check-raise by an earlier position opponent.


I would have folded.


I would have called if the bet came from an early player and I was closing the betting or close to it.


Do you think it would have been a mistake to fold even if the bet came from the preflop raiser (to my right) with all the players yet to act?


Also, how big a pot should I need for a call to be correct?


Thanks,


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)

Points well taken Jim.


As you can see, the responses are pretty varied.


On the flop, I really did not expect to win it outright, especially with that board. But I really did not expect either to get check-raised like that. The player that check-raised really screwed himself by not betting on the turn, when the second king fell.


I bet on the flop because the pot was large and I had hit it somewhat, although I admit my holding was shacky. Also, the bet on the flop stood a really good chance of being giving me a free river and who knows what can happen with 2 cards to come.


Thanks,


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)

Iwas going to imput here but Jim Brier said exactly everything I was going to say, much more eloquently than I could have


Dancer

with 12 bets in the pot I would certainly call on the flop with a pair. If there are ten bets in the pot I think you should almost always take off a card on the flop. I do not think the bet on the flop was wrong, but I think since you did bet the flop you were certainly correct to take a shot on the turn. But in general you might be better off to take the free card on the flop once it is checked to you. But it is not wrong to bet here, it is only wrong if you are not willing to ollow through on the turn.


Interesting hand,

Pat

Jim,


I think if you in particular made the preflop call you would make a ton of money.

I can't agree with your comment that the BB screwed himself by not betting the turn. The only logical hand he could have here is 10-8. When the turn card counterfeits his two pair, what would you think would be his correct play given he is against 3 players and likely drawing dead versus a King and drawing dead to a split against a better 10.


In fact, if he does hold 10-8 and you check the turn, (as I think most players would do with your hand) he has 1 out to win the pot and 3 outs to split the pot, while you would be drawing absolutely dead. While I agree with Jim Brier's coments above that the player with A-10 offsuit played the hand extremely weakly, he actually had you and the BB crippled after the turn.


Gomez

First of all, let me say that i have barely played hold'em for 6 months, and that i certainly dont play in medium stakes games - so i might be way off here.


anyway, the turn was what caught my interest - i do believe that a bet is correct to give a better hand a chance to fold, and get rid of other freak hands - also Bob Ciaffones article on the turn bet (which must go in) and the free showdown is very convincing in this matter. however, i came to look at it from the other guys (ATo) percpective. He is in a position where he either has the best hand (mid pair top kicker - discounting JJ and QQ etc.) or is badly beaten (no outs against trip kings). 21C HE says this is a situation where he should (depending on the size of the pot i assume) check and call, to minimize the loss if he's beaten and maximize the winnings (by inducing a bluff) if he has the best hand. thus if he was determined to call you down (and probably correct to do so given the pot) you are suddenly betting with only two outs into a player who is set to call you. the fact that there are other players still in the pot flaws my reasoning a bit - but i came to think of it since i have become rather agressive myself and lately have been check-called down by superior hands quite often. thus i believe that a check could be correct depending on how sophisticated your opponent is, and most importantly how he percieves you. If you were against ATo alone, a check would certainly hurt him the most, he would lose a bet on the turn and give you a freecard to take the pot from him. I know that in my regular game, against certain opponents a bet in this case would be wrong, since i am certain to get called down due to my image.

Any comments appreciated,

e