Weak/Tight Disease

Somewhere in a poker room, a loose/egg played too many hands today and still didn't come close to making a total of mistakes as expensive as the one I made in a single #$^@$% pot!!...


I limped early with Kh,Qd and a player who at times can play quite well, but occasionally develops a love/hate relationship with his chips...Raised. There were 2 late calls and I called. 4-way.


The flop came Qc,7c,8h. I bet, he called and one (weak) late player called. Now my weak/tight brain begins the post-flop thinking process. It could be a trap and he's waiting for the turn to raise. The late player could have, who knows? A flush draw seems likely cuz he never raises for a free card.


The turn is the Tc. I bet, he raised and the late player called two cold. My weak/tight brain starts to think again... Darn! He's got a real hand. If he doesn't have clubs or a str8, he's gotta be concerned about one of us having these hands. If we were heads up, my chips would've beat his into the pot because I know the type of player he is. But surely he wouldn't try to move TWO obvious players would he? He may also have an over-pair such as Kc,Kx/Ac,Ax or Ac,Qx or a set. The late player could have... Who knows? Anything from two-pair to a str8 to a flush. My weak/tight brain tells me it's likely gonna cost me two more bets to find out if I'm best and even if I currently am, there are cards which could river to beat me. I fold??!!


The river blanks, he bets and the late player calls. He had Kc,Jc and the late player had a JT, I think. I'm not sure because my vision got blurry from seeing all that red. A $220 minimum mistake. I know, not really cuz sometimes he'll get there. Still, it took 3 laps around the outer deck of the boat (in a drizzling rain) before I could come in and sit back down.


Know your players, I guess. Forgetting -$220 and the case of walking pneumonia I got, how bad of a fold was this? Thanks.

Kevin, I am confused by your narrative. The guy with the Kc-Jc made a flush on the turn so your hand was no good. You were drawing dead on the turn.

Kevin,


I don't think your that bad. Sounds to me like whatever sores caused by weak/tight disease are minor compared to the ones caused by results disease. We talk plenty about overcoming the pain of bad beats in order to remain focused, but here is a different kind of pain, just as inevitable, that appears to be self-inflicted because we had a choice in the betting. When actually, the self-infliction comes only from the natural tendency to regret not choosing an alternate path that would have worked out better, this time.


I'm presuming that you made a typo and that LHO did not make a flush. But let's say the LHO really did make a flush, and you got to see it in the showdown. Now, presumably, you would be happy as can be, and rightly so, for such a fine laydown.


But is anything different? Didn't you still make the same fold that you're now kicking yourself for?


In the is-that-horse-really-dead-yet department, this hand is a great example of the drastic difference between being first and last.


Tommy

The one hand that the raiser might have is AK/AKc as well. He also may have your same hand of KQ/KQs if he is in the "hate" part of his chip relationship.


I think to make this lay, you need to be sure that you are against a very strong player, and be very good on your read.


If I am new to a game and don't know the players, I probably would have checked it down.


I think it was a bad fold, but not hugely horrific. (I've made worse).

Thanks Tommy-


The fold seemed like the right thing to do. Then again, you can't just always fold because some guy decides to raise the turn, can you? I thought both their calls on the flop were key. While the third guy figured to have some hope, I couldn't have known the pre-flop raiser took a loose one off just to draw to a draw. I think maybe you're right, among other things, I suffered from "results" disease on this one (plus walking pneumonia).

I think you got into trouble because you played a semi-weak hand out of position. I would avoid playing that hand unless I could raise preflop. The only way I would do this is in late position after everyone folds to me. You let all those hands you mentioned creep into your head because your hand was not all that strong to begin with.

Kev,


You already know my thoughts about this hand but I thought I'd share them with the forum.


First, I think the perception some of us have about being weak-tight is greater than the reality. We know what we have and what we're folding, but our opponents don't always. Since we've only played a few times online together, I don't know what your image at a live table is. I can tell you online it's tight to be sure. But this doesn't automatically mean weak-tight. Because you're not often in there past the flop without a legitimate hand, so there is a danger in raising you simply for the hell of it. You also told me about a hand in this same session where you bet the turn, got raised, and were able to 3-bet with top set. All I'm saying is that this fear of getting pushed around is often unfounded. I fight it myself at times and I think all good players struggle for the proper balance of good folds and "statement" calls.


I will say that if you were heads-up, you should call much more often given your description of the player. But I agree that the third player (who called two cold on the turn), should offer some pot protection. He must share in the responsibility of sheriff in order to make sure the first player doesn't get away with this play often enough to make it profitable. So, good fold, bad result.

Kevin,


My thoughts regarding this hand are as follows:


The first and major problem is...


"I limped early with Kh,Qd and a player who at times can play quite well, but occasionally develops a love/hate relationship with his chips...Raised"


KQ whether suited or not - but DEFINITELY NOT SUITED is nothing but a trap hand in early or middle position in my opinion.


Generally, one or more of the following occur when playing this hand out of position:


1. One never knows where exactly they stand especially after being raised after limping


2. One is out of position the entire hand


3. It is a hand that wins small pots and loses big ones.


4. It is a hand in which one generally gets stuck paying off.


5. It is a trap hand.


6. It is a trap hand.


7. It is an unprofitable trap hand.


8. Did I mention it is a trap hand?


With this in mind, especially given the tendency of the 10-20 and 20-40 players at Hollywood to severely overplay their hands, I would not have folded this hand on the turn. Instead, I would have check called the turn and river (assuming a 4th club did not come). I would think that if someone is going to play this piece of cheese /images/smile.gif out of position then they should be committed to paying off given the circumstances described. I am not saying to always pay off - but as you are aware, I know the players in that room and how they play and I probably would not have folded that hand with a gun to my head. I am having a difficult time understanding why you put yourself in the 2 bet situation by betting the turn.


I waited for your clarification on whether or not the KJ was actually suited in clubs or if it was a typo. Obviously not much of a story here if it was suited - would have been a great laydown.


Anway - no disrespect meant at all as you are one of the best players in the room


Just some thoughts...


Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)

Thanks Mike-


Of course you're right. This hand gave me problems for all the reasons you mentioned. The game was playing loose and I was trying to add a few more hands to play. I've been told that hands like KQ and A9s can be profitable even from earlier positions if many are playing worse aces and kings. There were also players in the game who could potentially lose lots of chips if I flopped big. But there's a provision to playing these hands... You must play them well! It's entirely possible I don't play well enough yet to add these hands. That's not meant to be self-degrading, just a fact.


Further complicating my problems was that this paricular before the flop raiser was NOT of the weak/passive variety which I was counting on to make my hand profitable. He was aggressive, almost to a fault. But I was out of position. His just "call" on the flop only caused alarm, instead of assuring me I had the best hand. This is no doubt because he was the pre-flop raiser who had position and tended to be aggressive.


Perhaps you're also correct that it was best to check the turn. Above all, I try to resist any urge to play "scared" poker. There was still no reason to think my hand wasn't best. There were about 6 big bets in the pot when it was my turn to act on 4th street. I didn't think I wanted to give a free card. I also thought a bet would tell me where I'm at. In hindsight, maybe a check wouldn't have been so bad. If $$ is likely to go into the pot anyway, does it matter who intiates the betting? The fact that the aggressive pre-flop raiser is on my left and not right, also makes this check a little easier. Had he been on my right, checking might force me to call two cold.


I have a lot to think about with this hand. Mainly, am I capable of playing KQ from this position profitably in some games? I know some good players who do, but it's grey. Also the turn play. I see merit in both checking or betting and I can't say yet which was best given the players and this particular spot. Hopefully I'll come away with the right answers. Thanks again Mike.

There's more truth in your response than I care to admit. You're right! Thanks Drew.

I didn't realize you played at Hollywood. By all means add more trap hands to your game... Especially when I am there. HaHa.

I think you're too harsh about KQ. I have had very good results playing the hand although I would never open limp from early position with the hand. Raise or fold.


I also think leading on the turn is the correct play and once the late position fellow calls two cold Kevin had a clear laydown. If he had a redraw I could understand check-call but his hand is as good as its gonna get so he might as well bet.

Mike,


The first time you saw me plat at Aurora, you got frustrated trying to get a line on my play after I folded 20 hands in a row.


I do not see how KQ is a trap hand, and thik a game would have to be very tough or very aggressive to not play it.

You won't be outicked very often, and you will know it when you are.


"Outkicking" happens as often as flopping a set. Against a player whom he knows has AQ or AK, he is still 3-2 to have a big lead if a K or Q flops.


In the hand given, Kevin J is almost certainly not against AQ or an overpair, as this hand raises his flop bet. So does a big flush draw. There are too many weak draws on board to wait. So it is very likely he beats the turn raiser. The cold caller is a different story, and you have to use your judgement here.


Good luck.


Dan Z.

"In the hand given, Kevin J is almost certainly not against AQ or an overpair, as this hand raises his flop bet."


Dan-


While this is probably still true in most cases, I've been seeing more and more smooth calls on the flop with these hands in order to get in a bigger raise on the turn. Of course, sometimes this can be the right play, and sometimes it's not. Knowing if an opponent is capable of recognizing the difference can be tricky at best...

Kevin,


given the board, who in their right mind wouldn't raise with one pair that they thin is the best hand? Too many gutshots and weak pairs with backdoor draws.


If the pot were short-handed, or the board safer, I would agree. But this is not the case here, and most players won't count on you betting a 2nd time for them in this spot. I wouldn't.


Good luck.


Dan Z.

"given the board, who in their right mind wouldn't raise with one pair that they thin is the best hand?"


I'm not disagreeing with you Dan. But fortunately for most of us, many people fail to bring their right mind when they show up to a poker game. :>)

I play there all the time. And who are you? (just so I know who's trappin' me :>))

Dan,


I do remember the one time we met. Although I must confess, I do not recall getting frustrated. Not sure exactly why I would get frustrated at you folding 20 hands. Regardless it is truly irrelevant regarding this particular situation. From my recollection, we talked briefly, and shook hands at the table and then you proceeded to tell me that you disagreed with everything I posted on 2+2. I see nothing has changed on that front. /images/smile.gif- What I do not remember is ever playing against you again or even seeing you in the room. Where have you been - I have been giving away money - be sure to get some before it is all gone. Sale ends soon!!!!


Regarding Kevin's hand, I think you are making an awful lot of assumptions that I have found to be questionable in my experiences in playing at Hollywood and many other poker rooms.


1. From my experience, the game does not have to be tough for KQ to be a trap hand - just very aggressive as you pointed out, or very passive. If the game is very aggressive, which Hollywood often is, you are often dominated or will not be able to best gain maximum value because of your position relative to the raiser and other players in the pot. When the game is passive, you will get drawn out on often enough to make the hand unprofitable. I would also raise this hand pre-flop from early position extremely rarely as I have found it to be a dominated hand far too often.


2. Against the type of player Kevin described, I do not feel you will necessarily know when you are outkicked or facing an overpair. These players often have a tendency to wait until the big bet to raise an overpair or top-pair best kicker. With only 3 players in the hand and a flop similar to the one described, many stronger players will wait for the big bet before deciding on a course of action involving raising. Raising to thin the field is viable here but is also a tendency of players who are better than average at best who fail to understand the bigger picture here. They have a tendency to overlook other options which may be more profitable long term. And no I am not categorizing you or anyone else in particular here as I have not played against you enough to make any judgement whatsoever. In regards to raising the flush draw, I would not necessarily raise on the flop if I were in the same position as the pre-flop raiser - I may not want to lose him at this point. I also want to give him a chance to show strength here as I have the best draw and wish to give him every opportunity to misplay the hand.


3. I have spoken to Kevin about this and mentioned it to him so I hope he will not be upset by this comment. I am in no way criticizing his play as he is one of the best in the room and definitely one of the biggest winners there. With this said though some players have noticed that Kevin is, at times, capable of laying down a hand and may try to make a play at him in a situation such as this; especially given the 3rd opponent overcalling. In this situation, the 3rd opponent is likely weak given the way he played the hand.


I am not saying my thoughts are right; simply the ones I would have used if I played this hand. I truly believe though that profitability in a situation such as this is highly dependent on reading your opponents. I am basing my comments on my observations of the tendencies of Kevin's opponents in this particular hand.


Ok - good hearing from you again. Let me know when you will be at Aurora and we can grab a bite to eat if you are interested.


Just some thoughts...


Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)

Mike,


The time I referred to was years ago, probably 2 or 3, when I played at Hollywood about 5 times (I only occaisionally played at all until the past year and a half). We never sat together, but you were watching the game I was in, perhaps considering sitting down vs. going home, I am not sure.


This year, we played once, and I do not recall saying I disagreed with everything you put on 2+2 - I don't feel that way, anyway. Sorry if I made a joke that came out wrong.


Kevin is right - one of my worst flaws is assuming an opponent has a "right mind", at least in 4 handed pots. This is something I am fighting with.


As far as KQ goes, I guess I am too big fan of this hand, and I usually just call with it in early position, unless the game is very tight or I am suited and the game is loose or tight and passive. Some games I will dump it. I agree that it is marginal in early position, and if the game is very aggressive or tough you should fold. Given the huge rake there, this is another (small) reason to fold.


As far as raising a flush draw, you will never lose the flush draw. If you were HTH against a flush draw that will bet twice, you do better waiting for the turn. The 2 players behind you are the big problem. They can have middle pairs and gutshots, and you need to make them leave. It seems totally irrational with this board to not raise the flop bet with top pair or better, unless you have a set, or top pair and a flush draw (if this is possible). This is one line of thinking I use to read hands in multiway pots.


I agree that one should look at all the options, but this situation seems pretty straightforward, because of the board and the # of players remaining to act.


I will let you know next time I am coming out there. Thanks.


Dan Z.

Kevin,


I've read most of the replies in this thread, and agree with everyone that your laydown was justified. I know about the weak-tight disease, always putting your opponents on great hands and fearing a trap. But you have to figure that with a big pot already, and with that flop, if the raiser had a huge hand like a set or overpair that he'd probably raise the flop.


His turn play is curious, and it is either very good or pretty bad. You've classified him as blindly aggressive, but it's possible that he made a good read on you. It's kind of a reverse bank shot play. If he knows you wouldn't bet a draw on the flop out of position, and that you're able to make a laydown like you made, then his play makes sense. He does have several outs even if you call, and hopefully he'll get the player behind him off of anything but a flush.


The cold-caller also either made a bad play or a great read of the situation (I tend to think the former). If the cold-caller had folded, would you have called the raise?


Betting the turn is iffy, because it's hard to represent anything but top pair. Especially with the agressive player behind, I tend to just check-call here. But overall, I wouldn't worry about your play on this hand. Just loosen up in the future vs. this particular opponent.

Thanks Ryan-


Yes, heads-up I'd have called. I also agree with you analysis on the turn. Checking should've been considered. Thanks again.

Boris, I definitely agree with you about needing to bet the turn here. In addition to the strength of his hand, he has to consider that if he checks, he may give a free card to one (or both) of his opponents holding one club or a gutshot using one card in his hand that he would have folded to a bet. I think betting the turn is a clear choice.

"I think betting the turn is a clear choice"


But then how often would you fold in a 3-way pot with both opponents playing for 2 bets on the turn? Thanks.

This is an excellent example of the importance of position. The guy with J10 made some questionable calls, but at least he had the button. It is very hard to play a marginal hand up front with an aggressive opponent behind you in a multiway pot.

I have not been playing that often lately. I am not the Drew who is there all the time, but I am just about as tall. Can't tell you when I will play there again. Very busy.