2nd pair, TPNK and overcards

[MicroBob]

okay guys.....i'm getting killed lately and i know that my leakage includes so-so hands that i am pushing too hard.

i will try to get around to posting some hands later today (if i don't decide to take a break instead).

i'm just looking for some general ideas on how to play these heads-up and multi-way.


i know someone asked general questions like this about a week ago and i offered a response as if i really knew a little bit of what i was talking about....but lately it is becoming pretty obvious that i don't.


let me come up with some hypotheticals to start out the discussion and perhaps assist you guys in getting me back on the right track....

i'm not just looking at what to do first....but at what general situations do i want to keep pressing...and when exactly to change gears to C/C or C/F mode.


1.
85 in BB....4 limpers....
flop T83

2.
85 in BB....4 limpers....
flop A83


3.
A4s UTG.....you call...4 other limpers, BB checks, 6 to flop
flop A63
BB checks....

4.
AQo MP....
2 limpers, you raise, button cold-calls....limpers call....
4 to flop see
K92
2 checks and action is on you...


5. BB with 53s
3 limpers, you check....
flop
QQ5


there are many many more situations like this each with their own subtleties. i'm just trying to get a discussion started for the very basic selfish purpose of getting my head out of the aquarium.

i know that suitedness and player-reads can influence the decision here...but bear with me.
if you want to revise the examples...or develop some more of your own...feel free.


my problem is that i usually play these fairly aggressively....but get stuck when i don't take it right-away and am obviously behind.

sometimes i think i am laying down to a better hand when in fact i am not...other times i think i am calling-down with a reasonable shot to take it when i was actually behind the whole way.

i know a lot of players who toss their A4s if an A falls on the flop. i know that is a pretty weak-tight way to play....but it certainly seems preferrable to the way i have been grossly misplaying a lot of these.


ideas anyone??
thanks

[MicroBob]

okay...how about this one??

SB with A9o...
UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, I complete, BB checks

flop -
J96r

i bet....BB folds....other two players call


turn
6d (2nd diamond)


am i in check-call mode at this point??

[Chris Daddy Cool]

1. 85 in BB....4 limpers....flop T83

Check and see where the bet comes from. If it's to your immediate left, call when you can close the action or if you're sure a raise isn't coming from behind. I do not recommend betting out.

2) ditto.

3. A4s UTG.....you call...4 other limpers, BB checks, 6 to flop. flop A63. BB checks....

check intending to c/r. if checked through, lead on the turn.

4.
AQo MP....
2 limpers, you raise, button cold-calls....limpers call....
4 to flop see
K92
2 checks and action is on you...

Bet.

5. BB with 53s
3 limpers, you check....
flop
QQ5

Bet out and fold to any resistance.... or check. If last player to act bets, c/r. and fold to any resistence from him.

[tech]

The only one of these that I would be inclined to play fairly aggressively is the third one (A4s with an A flop). One and two seem like clear check/folds to me unless you are HU. Four and five I might bet out, but I would dance lightly because there is very little chance of improving if I am already behind.

[Piiop]

Hand 1 & 2 - With 4 limpers I think I'll have odds to check-call the flop to see the turn. Also, good position to check-raise. I always fold to two bets on the flop and sometimes just fold the flop to an EP/MP bet anyway. If a bet comes from a LAG'ish LP player I might check-raise, but there's a lot of cards that could come out that I don't really want to see so I wouldn't do it very often.

Hand 3 - I'll bet out here most time, sometimes check-raise. Depending on what suits are up there, you have top pair and 2 backdoor draws. I think it would be stupid to fold this unless something crazy happens like you bet and it comes back to you capped.

Hand 4 - This situation sucks. I would probably bet again anyway. Hopefully the button folds and I can make an easier decision on the turn. I'm folding against any aggression.

Hand 5 - Usually this is a check-fold. You may have the best hand now, but you probably won't by the river. Sometimes I'll check-raise. I find a check-raise on a paired board will either make everyone fold or tell you who has it pretty quickly.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]

SB with A9o...
UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, I complete, BB checks

flop -
J96r

i bet....BB folds....other two players call


turn
6d (2nd diamond)

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet again. Bet the river if a blank, 9, or A comes. If a K, Q, T comes well then you another decision to make.

[MicroBob]

thanks guys.

i believe the input will help get me back on track.


very strange how i can be winning consistently for a nice long stretch and then totally tank it.

i don't believe it is JUST variance. i truly believe i was playing smarter before and now am mis-applying ideas of 'taking control of the hand'.

in short - i think my head has been a bit mixed up on hands like these of late.

if it means that i need to resort to weak-tight play to get back on track then so be it.
sure beats playing so aggressive that i'm costing myself a couple BB's every hour.


do note that even when i was winning big i constantly repeated (in various posts and threads) that i really didn't think i was that good and that i truly felt at times that i had no idea what i was doing.
sometimes i hate being right!!

so....i'm in rebuilding mode of a sort.



i'm not trying to stop the convo on how to play these.

any more comments on what kinds of TPNK and 2nd-pair hands are worth sticking around with would be most welcome if anyone has the inclination to discuss these ideas.

[tech]

That turn card is bad in this spot. I would probably check/fold. The pot is small. You aren't likely to win unimproved, and you don't have odds to draw.

[JDErickson]

#1 I ck, fold to a bet.
#2 the same
#3 the same ( I like to have A7 or higher in order to go for these pots.
#4 bet, fold to a raise
#5 ck, fold to a bet. Even if you are ahead on flop there is a good chance an overcard will fall on turn or river beating you.

Except for #4 I just don't think its worth running with these hands. Wait until you get something better to punich them with.

Jim

[Xiphoid]

1. Check/fold. If it's checked around and you get a free turn (assuming it's not a card higher than your pair), bet.
2. Check/fold. Same scenario as above.
3. Wouldn't call this UTG if I'm in a slump (I would if I had a limper or two in front of me), but if I did see this flop, I'd bet or check-raise.
4. Good question, as I have problems with this. Half the time I would bet, the other half call, hoping for a free turn card.
5. Bet. You'll find out if someone has a Q (unless they let you know on the turn) and the bet will hopefully knock one or two people out who could hit a pair on the turn that beats you.

I think the first two hands are exactly what you want to stay away from when you are running bad. You've got to pick your battles better when you're in a slump so you can build both your confidence and bankroll back up. If you have to ask yourself "should I do this?" too many times, just fold it and be done with it or you'll spiral downward even more (these are not clear-cut winners and lose often).

Good luck. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Just play through it and you'll soon be in the shape that you are accustomed to.

[siccjay]

I don't understand why everyone is telling you to check/fold on hands that you have pot odds to see the turn with in hopes of improving.

Count your outs (try to make sure they are clean) and check your pot odds.

Where is Ed Miller when you need him?

[Xiphoid]

Hey siccjay, here are my reasons for check/fold:

1) From the information we're given, MicroBob just leads us up to the flop and your action on the BB, so you can't really calculate odds for seeing a turn. With the information given, I'm check/folding.

2) Look at the position of these hands! In most of them, MicroBob is first to act and in my opinion, that is no place at all to bet out middle pair/crap kicker. Someone with top-pair is going to drill you and then what are you going to do?

3) This is not heads up. You are betting into a medium-sized field that could have top pair/any kicker, middle pair/higher kicker, a middle pair (like 77, 88 or 99) that you don't know about. Some people will use the line "Don't fold because you can't assume those hands are out there!", but I think some people use this as an excuse to call down to the river too often and they lose. As much as they can say "don't assume those hands are out there", I can say with just the same weight that "those hands might be out there".

4) He's running bad. I know when I'm running bad, I don't go for marginal profit situations like this (I wouldn't bet out the first two hands if I was running great, but that's just me). You pick the right battles and get yourself back on track.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why everyone is telling you to check/fold on hands that you have pot odds to see the turn with in hopes of improving.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain this

I was never very good with odds but I'm thinking around 10:1 to hit on turn and 6:1 if you go all the way to river. On the flop there are 5 players with 2.5 BB in pot. This doesn't seem like ok odds to me. Maybe you are figuring differently and I am wrong though.

[siccjay]

Implied odds....

Even though the hands aren't too in depth with what kinda players hes playing with and who does what I would think in most of these hands he has implied odds to pay 1/2 a BB to see the turn.

You told him to check fold top pair?? Thats just not good.

[MicroBob]

i agree that some of the suggestion have been pretty weak-passive.

i also KNOW that i have been overly aggressive.


i think that at least SOME of these hands should just be ditched.
the Aces you should still play though....
but if everyone calls you then you are kind of stuck because you could be behind someone who will call you all the way....


still looking into the lousier holdings that i've been overplaying.

i think xiphoid has the best ideas of all.
for me it simply hasn't been working lately and therefore it might be best to go back to a more basic and weak-tight strategy and gradually build from there.

i actually think that what might be weak-tight for me is still sometimes more aggressive than what others here in the ML forum will do.


i gained a few of my BB's back this afternoon. not entirely thrilled with the progression of the day or the past couple of weeks....but i do still think there is light at the end of the tunnel here so we'll see how it goes.


it doesn't help that my KK thrice ran into AA.
also had an AA that i raised all the way chased down by Q8 on board of 8TK3Q
as well as other 'tough crap...that's poker dude....they're paying you off in the long-run' types of hands.


hey the weekend is coming up...so maybe i can win a few of the BB's back then.


how i'm looking at it....
even with the losing skid at the end of May i still ended up significantly on the plus side for the month.

so i've started off june on a losing streak...big deal...it happens. i'll just grind-away until i get it back.


thanks again for the support and input.

[ZootMurph]

How I play these are simply a matter of pot odds.

If you flop second pair, regardless of kicker, check and call one bet when you have pots odds to your 5 outs. Fold if you don't have pot odds or if it is bet and raised.

If I flop top pair, I bet out and see what happens. If it is raised behind me, I play it dependent on the raiser... either call and hope for a fortuitous turn or fold to a solid player.

Hand 1 & 2: Check. 5.5 small bets plus any bets to you. You need 8.5 small bets to call. If you have 3 people in in front of you, you have your pot odds and call. Otherwise fold. If it is bet and raised, fold.

Hand 3: Bet out. Call a raise, but not a 3 bet. If you don't hit another Ace, a 4, or get a straight or flush draw, check and call... Same for the river. If you hit a straight or flush draw, bet out.

Hand 4: Bet out. As preflop raiser, you need to bet out. Call a raise but again not a 3 bet, and see the turn. With no help on the turn, check/fold if you are raised, bet out again if you got calls on the flop. Check/fold the river if still no help.

Hand 5: Bet out, you may take it down right there if no one has a Q or 5. If raised, consider the player. Fold to a solid player, call a loose player.

With unfavorable situations, you should usually check it and utilize pot odds to determine if a call is right. You don't want to bet, because you don't want to see a raise, and a bet is a semi-bluff, which needs to have some chance of winning the pot right there, and that won't happen enough to make the semi-bluff worthwhile in micro limits. Don't put yourself in a bad situation by betting EVERY time. Aggressiveness is good, but not always the right play.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
Implied odds....

Even though the hands aren't too in depth with what kinda players hes playing with and who does what I would think in most of these hands he has implied odds to pay 1/2 a BB to see the turn.

You told him to check fold top pair?? Thats just not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Implied odds on what?

Hands 1 and 2 are drawing to 5 outs. 3 of these outs are iffy because your 2 pair can easily be beat. You don't have the pot odds to call 1 bet. If you knew everyone would call along maybe but still its iffy for implied odds. You need to get to 10:1 odds to make it a good call, thats another 7.5 BB you are hoping for. If you plan to stick to the river hoping one of your outs hit you maybe will hit the implied odds.

Just my opinion of course but I think 1 and 2 aren't worth it. A4s maybe

On the A4s hand that is my personal preference. With all the loose players playing any A your A crap kicker very well could be beat. If I thought the opponents would fold to my bet I would but if they are normal loose passive players I think you are just wasting your time on the very few times you will win with A4.

[adanthar]

There are solely for 3/6. At .50/1, the answers are very different for me. Anyway:

1)I check/call one depending on where the bet comes from. This board isn't dangerous, but with four limpers my eights are not going to be the best hand often enough to bet it. Additionally, an observant player will see the tight/aggressive SB call and instantly fold his overs without the odds (possibly with if I've been CR'ing a lot lately.)

2. Fold and it's not close.

3. I rarely call this UTG. If I do, I'm 50/50 between a bet and CR. Once my A falls and I'm first to act, I'm going to be aggressive. Note: I just about break even with low suited aces, maybe a little better (but I'm horrible with the medium suiteds. Probably just variance).

4. Pretty much autobet here. I want to see who folds and who calls. I'll fold to a raise and alternate between betting and check/folding the turn (again, depending on who calls.)

5. Fold and it's not close. I'm not worried about the queens; I'm worried about the pair of sixes that will call me down. If I'm behind I have exactly 2 outs; if I'm ahead my opponents have, I don't know, about eight thousand between them.

[MicroBob]

zoot's approach is a bit more aggressive then what others have recommended but i also like his ideas and explanations the best.

i also think it might be closer to what Ed Miller might recommend in these situations.....but since i'm still waiting (and waiting and waiting...with baited breath) for that freaking book to come out i can't say for sure.


adanthar also provides some good logic. he is not as aggressive as zoot on these hands but his approach may, in fact, be "safer"....especially for one who has been getting clobbered lately like myself.
you're probably not losing much EV if you fail to push whatever advantage you may or may not have in some of these situations.
and, for someone who may be lacking a little confidence in one's instincts, i suspect that trying to avoid trouble hands and situations is actually the +EV play....at least while i try to get my head back on straight again.