Poker Heaven? or Poker Hell!

I'm in a 20/40 "must move" game and next up to move to the main game. Checking out the main game in advance, everyone had lots of chips and the game "was on". Five or 6 players in every pot and usually three bet preflop. I couldn't stop myself from "DROOLING" :-)


Finally they called my name - Christmas time is here in September!!


As soon as I set down this one guy (one of four gamblers; some refer to as fish; I like to prefer to them as full blown gamblers) raises UTG and bluffs with heavy action through the river; proudly turns up 23 offsuit and smiles as his opponent drags the pot. Ten hands later, same player makes same play with same hand (I have pocket kings) and he makes a full house on the river J 3 2 J 2.


Gambler #2 Raises early limper with 69 offsuit and makes a straight. Same player does this two more times with same hand and makes a winning straight every time. (My hand Pocket 99) flop 9 8 7 4 5

There were four players (two drinking) that just couldn't get their money in fast enough.


You would think four such players in a game is wonderful but it really seems to be a game of "showdown". Your skills are taken away from you, other that starting with a good multiway hand.


The two days before; a player I'll refer to as "Red" beat me 10 out of ten hands. The next day he beat me 9 out of ten hands. I won 1 out of 20 hands. Guess what....I had him beat on the TURN 17 of those 20 hands.

Worse yet this guy plays for a living - go figure!


Now this "Red" is in a pot with Gambler #3 and I - and #3 is bluffing on the river; I know this and call, Red hesitates and folds his hand. Bluffer #3 hesitates and doesn't want to show his hand and as he was about to muck; "Red" demands to see his hand and #3 mucks into the deck. "Red" pitches a fit and #3 leaves the game upset with lots of chips. I looked at "Red" and asked How do you make a living playing poker by running off your best customers? His reply was I seldom ever do that.


This is NOT meant to be a bad beat story - Just an example of what can happen at a given time. It is a fact that I usually beat good players more often than I do a game full of GAMBLERS! Does anyone else experience this?


Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to beat such a game other than being lucky?

There are two clinical tests for a particular rare disease. One is ALWAYS correct but is very expensive. The other is much cheaper, always identifies those with the disease, but will produce a false positive on 1 out of 10,000 healthy people. Doctors screen with the first test and if positive, use the 2nd. Sounds like a great plan.


It turns out that only one out of every 7 million people have the disease. So when they test 7mil people, the 2nd test will find ONE correct positive and 700 false positives. It is INCORRECT to presume that the test is 699/700 99.86% inacurrate. The apparent discrepensy is due to the distribution of the disease, not with the test. Its still a great plan.


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If there is you and another selective player in a pot with 4 unselective players, chances are an unselective player will win. And when you come in 2nd, its MUCH more likely that an uselective player will beat you.


Your selective approach is still a great plan.


- Louie


Stop counting your beats. Your bad luck will end when you change your poopie attitude. /images/smile.gif

Bob, there is no way to beat this game or any gambling game without being lucky. You cannot beat this game on skill alone. You must have decent amount of luck. In the long run, as long as you are getting your fair share of good cards and your suckout cost per hour is not too high, your skill will allow you to win something. How much you win over a finite period of time depends upon how lucky you are (that is, how low your suckout cost per hour is as well as your holdover cost per hour).


Furthermore, a lot of these "gamblers" are statistical deviates. When you get a large group of people engaging in an activity that is so dominated by luck as this one, you will have a few players who are extremely lucky over a finite period of time. The guys who are the statistical deviates sometimes get viewed as being great players because they have such spectacular results. But if you could see all of their hand histories, you would observe that their play was not that much different than the play of many other players. What you would notice is that their hands get to hold up a high percentage of the time and they get to suckout against better hands more often than statistical norms would indicate.

Bob,


I got tangled up in a similar situation a short time ago. I made a mortal mistake i hardly ever make though by letting it affect my play and putting me on tilt. I am more upset at myself for going on tilt and playing porrly than anything else.


These can be frustrating games but over time you will have the best of it and the gamblers do in fact lose and you will be profitable in the end. Remember, it is simply one long game. Playing correctly and continuing to improve ones game is all that matters as far as I am concerned.


Hang in there and stay focused.


Just some thoughts...


Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)

Louie,


You don't really believe that you can end your bad luck in the future (or create good luck) by a change in attitude, do you?

We've all been in a game like this at some time. The luck factor is paramount here. Yes, in the long run, you'll do better because you play better, but there is no long run in these games. A game can indeed by too juicy. As the fish school together, each call they make becomes less bad. Sometimes it does feel like each player ought to just put $240 into the pot and play showdown.


Sounds like you had far more than your fair share of bad beats though.

Actually, I didn't loose a great deal in the wild game. I actually won good money in the game that Red beat me 19 out of 20 hands. I beat the other players but he beat me. I just thought this streak he had over only me was quite a "hot" streak. The games were good and I would play them again! My point was how wild they played and won for awhile. Two of them left broke, one left mad. The fourth tried very hard to give all of his money away but just couldn't; he kept hitting long shots! :-)


I really wasn't trying to get anyone to throw me a pity party! :-) If they play this way all the time, I'll get my share in the long run.

Yeah, I got ya. I know you weren't looking for sympathy, just advice and comments on the wildness of the game. Nevertheless, glad to hear things didn't turn out as bad as I wrongly assumed.


Regards,

Andy

Everyone who plays in LA is wondering just what you think is unusual about this game.

You have a good point! Only in LA, I've played there and I do know what you mean :-)


However, Most of the games I play in respect a raise and shutter at a three-bet! Their raises usually tell you what they are most likely to have! (AA KK QQ or AK)

Would you tell us where the game is?

Bob,


Is there a contradiction between this:


"It is a fact that I usually beat good players more often than I do a game full of GAMBLERS!"


And this?


"Five or 6 players in every pot and usually three bet preflop. I couldn't stop myself from "DROOLING" :-) Finally they called my name - Christmas time is here in September!!"


Sounds to me like you knew in advance that this wasn't your most profitable type of game, yet you were drooling anyway. What gives?


"Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to beat such a game ...?"


My least favorite games are very tight and very lose. The very tight games I don't play in. The very lose games, I play in, but I don't overrate my chances as it sounds like you did. I think one of the reasons I'm happy at poker is because I keep my expectations low at all times. To me, poker is terminally humbling. It's mind boggling to me that so many are so confident, especially considering that almost everyone loses.


I've done very well in aggressive, super-lose games ever since I made a couple adjustments.


1) No bluffing on the turn or river


2) Less flop raising


3) Less turn raising


4) Very little check-raising


5) More hands played from the button


6) Consistently following the adjustments


That last thing is the main one. It's so easy to throw caution to the wind when everyone else is. A mob thing used to kick in sometimes, even if only on an occasional hand. Then I'd get frustrating at my weak leaks, and disaster lingered nearby.


By keeping expectations low, and by realizing that I'm forced to fight without my best weaponry, and by staying aloof to the fray, and by not getting upset when the inevitable beats come, and by taking the role of a spectator who occasionally sees a flop and then folds, and by not much enjoying the game and being pretty much lax about the whole thing, and by knowing in advance that I'm only going to see about one river card per hour and my results for the day will hinge on a few key cards (instead of multiple three way pots), the whole event becomes a boring sidebar instead of a engrossing spectacle.


Tommy

Is there a contradiction between this:


"It is a fact that I usually beat good players more often than I do a game full of GAMBLERS!"


And this?


"Five or 6 players in every pot and usually three bet preflop. I couldn't stop myself from "DROOLING" :-)


Finally they called my name - Christmas time is here in September!!"


Sounds to me like you knew in advance that this wasn't your most profitable type of game, yet you were


drooling anyway. What gives?


Good point Tommy! - I guess the "greed" of seeing all those chips in front of several very weak players trapped me :-)

I love big pots. I realize there is danger in these type of games but you only have to win one pot an hour to make it profitable.


Thanks for your advice, most of it makes sense!