Strange play

Here's a strange play that I made, and I wanted some comments on it.


A late middle position player limps in. I am 2 off the button with KdQd. I raise. Aggressive player in cuoff seat 3 bets, and the pot becomes heads up. Flop is AdJs5d. I check -raise, and my opponent calls. Turn is a Jc. I check my opponent bets, and I call. The river is another ace, and I check and fold.


Thanks in advance for any advice.


Dan Z.

Most players will correctly call your flop check-raise no matter what they have, except perhaps 99. If so, you should have followed through with a bet on the turn especially since you intend to call a bet with your 12-out draw and the Jack is much more threatening to the opponent than it is for you (i.e. you are more likely to have a Jack than he). You chances of winning right away overshadow the times he 3-bets.


- Louie

Dan, if you are going to play this aggressively, then I agree with Louie. You need to follow up your check-raise on the flop with a bet on the turn. When you dog it on the turn, your opponent knows where you are at and can simply bet you out of the hand unless a diamond shows up.


I think your line of play was an interesting one but there are problems. King-queen suited looks pretty but it does not play well in raised pots unless you get a large field. You are a dog to ace-high. Preflop, when a middle player limps in, I don't like raising with about half the table yet to act and one player already committed having king-queen suited. I like your check-raise on the flop because you have 12 outs with two cards to come and you will be going to the river with this hand. Your opponent may fold a pocket pair of tens or nines. Although unlikely, he might even fold a pocket pair of queens or kings if he thinks he is playing two outs.


You could have saved two small bets, one preflop and one on the flop, by playing more passively but this does not maximize your chances of winning.

Anyone like a check-raise on the turn?

I like a bet on the turn more than a CR, because it is less likely to confuse your opponent into calling down with something like KK or QQ. After you CR him twice in a row, he may call down just because he's pissed, curious, or uncertain. You also lose less when he shows you AA AK or AQs.


Dan may have dodged a bullet by checking the turn. If opponent flopped a big hand, he might have just called the flop raise so he could raise a bet on the turn (many players do this with their better hands, especially heads up). I'm not saying I like the check (I would have bet), but Dan did go from 12 nut outs on the flop to possibly drawing dead on the turn. If Dan gets raised when he bets the turn, he might want to consider folding.

Good points. I especially like the one about being called down because your opponent is pissed. I can remember only two hands where I was check=raised on 3 rounds. I believe I called my opponent down, and lost, on both. I wouldn't say I was pissed, but I was certainly curious.

I'm not sure in what book Sklansky brings up this point (it might have evn been in the original $2.00 1974? edition of Hold 'em Poker thin paperback) but he warns against getting your opponent emotinally involved in the pot giving him incentive to stay when you really want him to fold.

Louie:


I, too, fully support your advice to come out betting on the turn, especially after check-raising the flop.


However, let's assume that that play took place on the turn (as preferred over the check) and was raised by the opponent, would you now fold your hand?


I am curious to see your reasoning in this type of scenario.


Thanks!


Ivan

My friend, who is one of the best card players i know, constantly berated me for the check raise-check move.


If you are going to check raise-check, then it is usually followed by a fold unless the pot is enormous.

For the most part, I agree with your friend's advice to never check raise - check. The only exception I can think of is when you flop a nut flush/straight draw and only weak unaggressive opponents are in the pot. A check raise - check will usually buy you a free card on the turn.

Dan,


I disagree with Jim about the preflop play. I like it. I always like to take control of the pot when I can, especially if the limper is weaker. The raise might buy you the button and it gives you the momentum. I really like the check-raise on the flop too.


But the question is, why the check on the turn? Your opponent seems aggressive enough that the check will not buy you a free card. Would you bet the turn with an ace? Would you bet the turn with a Jack? Would you bet the turn with a set? Do you check-raise on the flop in this situation with an ace, a jack or a set? If you do then you should definetly bet the turn with your power draw. I like being fluid. It makes more sense in the head of my opponent. I think Jim is right on the money when he says that by check-calling the turn, your opponent knows exactly where you stand and that's bad. The only thing positive about it is if you think he would raise you on the turn after the jack falls because it would cost you one more BB to see the river. But would he really? Maybe. I think he is more likely to bet after you check than raise you after you bet. Then you should bet, IMO. You are representing an ace, a jack or a set on the flop, I would have followed through and represented it on the turn too. If he raises, well, maybe he read you right but you still have 12 outs (unless he has AJ, JJ or AA).


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)