Weak 1 and 2 gappers suited in blinds...

Hello everybody,


I want to ask the forum a question relating to a situation I find myself in frequently (I play a lot). I usually play 15-30 and 20-40 and hold my own winning more than losing. I am tight agressive in my play. I have read many poker/holdem books but here is a situation (IMO) has not been covered very well in most of them. It involves being suited in the blinds with weak 1 and 2 gappers. (hmmm, how do I ask this so it is easy for you to reply)


First let me define the type of hands I am referring to: (I will omit Ace-little suited as I will play that multiway for a SB call or one raise from my BB if pot is multiway)


I am referring to hands like 35s, 46s, 57s, 58s, 68s, 69s, 108s, 107s etc etc etc - you know what I mean (I hope).


What are the guidelines for calling with these hands?


[1] If in SB and there are many limpers and it is half the BB to call (I will automatically call if SB is 2/3 BB and no raise) should I call? How many limpers do I need?


[2] If in SB or BB with these types of hands and it is raised once from late position preflop with many limpers/callers so I anticipate a multiway pot what should I do? Again how many players seeing the flop do I need?


[3] What if it was 3 bet pre in a very loose game and many (5+) players call the 3 bet and you are in the SB or BB?


I have seen players (some very good players too) in the blinds call with these types of hands in multiway pots and win huge pots. They are easy hands to get away from if the flop doesnt connect but in terms of implied odds do these hands have +EV or -EV longterm?


Sorry, this has turned out to be a more complex question than I intended (too many questions/scenarios) but I hope you know where I am coming from. I am sure all regular players get these type of hands in the blinds often and I'd appreciate your views on how to play them.


I love this forum and the opportunity to pick the brains of some (obviously) good players.


Thanks again.


Rose

OK, here's how I handle these, usually.


If there is no raise, I always play them, except 25s. That's easy. With a 2/3 SB, 25s gets played.


If there's a raise, I almost never play them from the SB. I would never play with 2 gaps from the SB for a raise. With 1 gap, it would take 4 opponents, 5 if the players are very aggressive.


From the BB, I would play a 1 gapper with 3 opponents for a raise, or 2 opponents if I think they are raising weak or I can easily manipulate them and they are not super tight. I wil play the better 1 gaps against a possible steal heads up. A 2 gapper would take 4-5 opponents.


It would take many opponents, probably 6, to play a 1 gapper for 3 bets, but if you never did, you wouldn't miss out much. There will just be too much action, you'll have to beat an overpair and are likely to get outflushed. For 3 bets, being in the BB or SB doesn't matter much. It can also get taken to 4 bets.


Good luck.


Dan Z.

Thanks Dan, we are very close in our thinking. Look forward to replies from others. This kind of hand/play can often make the difference between a winning and losing session when you hit the flop or a decent draw.


Take care,


Rose

"This kind of hand/play can often make the difference between a winning and losing session ..."


If you allow me to cut your sentence short, and substitute "life" for "session," then I agree. :-)


In a 4/8-chip game, I don't see the flop with any of those hands unless it's a free-play from the BB.


Tommy

Tommy-


You really think these hands from the bb are decisions which affect a lifetime's worth of results? It seems to me that as long as you're getting close to the right number of players, and you stay on your toes for further potential pre-flop raising, it shouldn't be significant one way or another. Provided you play these hands well after the flop.

Kevin,


"It seems to me that as long as you're getting close to the right number of players, and you stay on your toes for further potential pre-flop raising, it shouldn't be significant one way or another. Provided you play these hands well after the flop."


Sounds to me like you're saying that if we do everything perfectly every time, we can maybe break even on these hands. Oddly, what you intended as a defense of these hands looks to me like a strong case for folding them.


Tommy

I used to be a stubborn blind defender, and I would pull some nice pots off these types of hands, but they also give you your most painful beatings. Classic example is the two pair flop counterfeited by the over pair when the board pairs one of the other cards. I used to think that was bad luck when that spoiled some of my best pots. Of course, those were pots that got pushed by my check raise or check three bet out of the blinds. Add those beats to the "folds on the flop" which those hands usually bring, and it's best to be very selective about playing them. Once in a while not to be bullied, once in a while if there are lots of early position limpers, but not as a habit.


I think 80% of what he says is pure silliness...and I think he knows it too...but one of the Suburban Poker Man's pet sayings is always good to keep in mind: "Big cards beat little cards, and few people bluff"


See, Phil? I attribute. And I didn't pick that 80% figure at random either:)

I have the same question as the post, and now I am more confused than ever! Some of the responses sound like they think it is NEVER right to play these hands???? When can you play them for a profit? When should they not be played? Excatly which hands can be played under what circumstances? Am I to surmise from these answers that you can only play AK, AQ and big pocket pairs?

"Once in a while not to be bullied,"


That's a valuable mindset, when it belongs to the opponent!


Tommy

some of the truest statements are made in "jest." actually imho, virtually everything spm writes has meaning for the winning poker player, although his message can be presented in an unconventional manner....to suggest 80% silliness is silly...gl

How do the pros around here factor in position relative to the raiser? Aren't you actually more likely to call a raise from a UTG raiser in a big field where your call can close the action? (or at least the only possible 3-bettor is the BB) Any hints on ferreting out those times where you will get trapped for multiple bets? I find situations where a game is sort of passive, but one raise can lead to insta-cap, and closing the action can be helpful.

What I meant was that if it's correct to play in a 6-way pot but not 5, the margin of error can't be much. It's not a monumental decision either way. Now if you play too often heads-up against a solid UTG raise, that's a different story. But determining whether 6 is enough to come in, but 4 is not, are not decisions which will have a significant impact on lifetime hold'em results.

I might be wrong, but as I stated in an above response I don't think this is a significant problem (at least from the big blind). One thing I look for is where the raise comes from. For instance, if the raise came from the button then I'm more inclined to fold pre-flop if I feel the decision is close. Not only can it get re-raised pre-flop, but many players tend to check to the raiser after the flop which can make your hand more difficult to play. But I don't think you should sweat the small stuff as in, I'll play a 6-way pot but not 5, etc.

Limp-reraises are very rare where I play. So I'm not worried about closing out the action in these situations. I'm less likely to call an UTG raise than when the raise is from later position because I'm generally up against weaker hands when the action goes limp-limp-limp-raise than when it goes raise-call-call-call.

Kevin,


It's natural that we would disagree on particulars because we don't agree on a premise. For me, it is a significantly costly to play these hands out of the blinds, it doesn't matter how many players.


"But I don't think you should sweat the small stuff as in, I'll play a 6-way pot but not 5, etc."


Wouldn't this reasoning lead to playing these hands every time, even heads up and three-way?


As to sweating small stuff, the "sum of edges" concept implies that what matters most is precisely the small stuff.


Tommy

"Wouldn't this reasoning lead to playing these hands every time, even heads up and three-way?"


Not at all. I did not mean to imply that discretion isn't important.


"As to sweating small stuff, the "sum of edges" concept implies that what matters most is precisely the small stuff."


I agree with this. If you make too many bad decisions it adds up to be meaningful. But I also like what Mason has to say about pre-flop decisions and I hope I'm not taking him out of context here. Basically, the bulk of $$ is made after the flop. The pre-flop decision of whether 12 to 1 odds is enough in the bb with a hand like 8h,7h, but 10 to 1 is not, is nowhere near as important as the decision of what you'll do if the flop comes Ac,8s,3h or the SM classic-->> Ah,5c,4s. This post-flop decision is MUCH more important than whether or not you call pre-flop. IMO-

I wasn't going to bother commenting until I read rgeare's post.


Generally I don't agree with with S&M that pre-flop play is hugely overrated, but here is an example where it is. I don't believe it will affect your longterm results one way or another.


I'll generally play it in the SB with 2 or more limpers. This has 2 benefits. One, it relieves the boredom of folding hand after hand. Two, it helps my image at the table.

As far as these hands go, I play them from the blinds depending on the action and the nature of the players in the game.

From the SB, I will typically limp with any of the hands you mentioned, but only if it's definitely going to be multiway (i.e. at LEAST 4 opponents), AND the BB is not a frequent raiser. Say 5 limp and I'm in the SB (SB=1/2 BB). If the BB does not raise, there are 6.5 small bets, and it only costs me ½ a SB to call, so that's 13:1 odds pre-flop. You can take the flop with some pretty weak hands for those odds. However, if the BB is a frequent raiser, I would often fold, because now the odds are not so certain, and you will be out of position for the entire hand either way. The key points here would be that you need to be getting really good odds pre-flop, the BB must be unlikely to raise, and you need multiple opponents to pay you off if you hit a big hand. The propensity of your opponents to play on after the flop should also influence your decision. In a game where three or four remain on the river, you should be more likely to play these hands. I would pretty much fold all these hands for a raise from the SB under most circumstances.


Now from the BB, since you get a free play if it's not raised, it really only matters as to what you are going to do if raised. Here, one key consideration is whether your call of the raise closes the action or not. If you have a frequent limp-reraiser (commonplace in california games) two seats to your left, I would strongly consider folding most, if not all of these hands. You want fairly optimal conditions to call raises from the big blind with suited one or two gappers. You would like several opponents to pay you off when you hit. You would like to be getting good pot odds before the flop on your call of the additional bet. Here, you can have only three opponents and be getting 7:1 odds to call. Obviously, the more opponents, the better, but I wouldn't call a raise from the BB unless I had at least three opponents. Optimally, you would still rather have more than three people to pay you off when you hit, so the more, the merrier. Also, I would be more inclined to call with a one gapper than a two gapper, and more inclined to call as my cards go up in rank, because this adds some value to the hand, because top pair is more likely to hold up. Again, how far your opponents typically go post-flop should influence your decisions, the more they chase, the more likely you should be to play.


As for the three bet scenarios, there are probably not many situations where I would play any of these hands for three bets, from either blind. For one thing, if you are in the blind, and it's been three bet, your call cannot possibly close the action. Thus it is possible to get raised again, so I would probably fold any of these hands virtually all the time.


Optimally, if you pick and choose wisely as to when to play these hands, you should have a +EV every time. You should not be entering pots at all if you have a negative EV on a particular hand. However, calculating your exact EV BTF is not something that can easily be done at the table, you must use your judgment. Just keep in mind that with these hands, you want to get in cheap, and get paid off big if you hit, so you should be considering these things each time you are faced with this situation.


Dave in Cali