Raising Overcards on the Flop

[zram21]

I had only played a few hands at this table so I don't have any great reads. Overall the table seems to be a pretty typical Party 2-4 table. Most players seemed a little loose aggressive.

2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB re-raises, BB calls, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16 sb) J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises (?), UTG+2 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

<font color="blue">I raised here with the intention of folding to a 3 bet. I figured I am way behind any hand that the SB would 3 bet here and that if he only called then there is a good chance that if I spike my A or K that I will be good. Plus the raise may give me a free shot at one of my cards on the river if I miss on the turn. Is that the right line here?</font>

Turn: (12 BB) T /images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks.

<font color="blue">I picked up the gutshot draw on the turn. Should I have bet here? It seems unlikely that I would get everyone to fold with a bet so I figured taking the free card was the better option.</font>

River: (12 BB) K /images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

How did I do?

[zram21]

No thoughts?

[ProfLupin]

If UTG+2 had folded on the flop I'd have definately bet the turn (prepared to fold to a check-raise) but his cold call on the flop worries me, so I think you did fine here.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Most players seemed a little loose aggressive.....
[your flop comment]..I raised here with the intention of folding to a 3 bet. I figured I am way behind any hand that the SB would 3 bet here and that if he only called then there is a good chance that if I spike my A or K that I will be good.

[/ QUOTE ]


If sb 3-bet you would be getting something in the neighborhood of 24-1 to call the 3-bet, so folding would be pretty bad, especially against aggressive players with flush and straight draws on the flop. I favor the turn check, and would check the turn even if UTG+2 had folded and you had position on the turn. Even against 2 complete clowns (assuming UTG+2 had folded on the flop), someone bet into you and both called your raise on the flop so they aren't folding on the turn for one big bet and this is 2-4 were people don't tend to get too out of line (even the clowns) so its real likely you are behind. The addition of the gutshot outs does not increase your shot of winning enough to make the turn a value bet.


I think your raise is Ok, here are some general thoughts

-I am less inclined to raise when I am unsure of the cleanliness of my overcard outs, which may be the case with 2 suited cards on the flop, a monotone flop, a paired playable card (such as a TTx flop), or a 3 straight flop. I am not saying to play weak tight and fear your opponents have the best draws and the best possible hands, but the play of overcards is very situational and perhaps the most difficult aspect of play and the cleanliness of your outs needs to be considered and accounted for.

- I am less inclined to raise the more opponents I have, especially on "connected" flops such as those mentioned above, but on a less connected flop I am may be more inclined to raise, even in the face of multiple opponents, if I think a raise will fold opponents and give me a better shot of winning a big pot.

-I am more inclined to raise with few oppoents and a draw ladden flop if I think the bettor would bet most of his draws and no other player has called the bet, thus giving me a shot to get it headsup against a likely draw.

- In position I am less inclined to raise against aggressive, tenacious opponents, and more inclined to raise against passive oppoentns who will shut down, even on flops that don't seem to connect with a preflop. In general I am more inclined to raise with position.

- Out of position I am less inclined to raise with callers between me and the button, and more inclined to raise with tight players between me and the button. In general I am less inclined to raise out of position.

- I am less inclined to raise the greater the number of player's who have called the intial flop bet, and more inclied to raise the the fewer the number of players who have called the intial flop bet

-I am more inclined to raise on flops that seem good for a preflop raiser, such as a Q72 flop with AK where I can represent AQ, KQ or a big pair, than on a non paint flop.

-I am less inlcined to raise if I am losing and/or have been raising preflop and missing the flop a lot and/or have been semi-bluffing post-flop and missing, and more inclined to raise if I have been winning and/or connecting with the flop when I have raised preflop and/or have been raising post-flop with made hands that have been shown down.

-backdoor nut flush draws make me more inclined to raise, with backdoor straight draws I am not so inclined to raise as with a backdoor flush draw because that also means my overcard outs may contribute to someone else making a straight (not to say you should fear this but this possibility increases with more opponents)

[BottlesOf]

This really sums it up. This post combined with JoeTall's essay (which I can't find right now) and Crockpot's (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=440052&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=) should be considered the bible on how to play overcards on the flop

[BottlesOf]

I like raising the flop here. Folding to a 3-bet would be offensive.

[zram21]

[ QUOTE ]
If sb 3-bet you would be getting something in the neighborhood of 24-1 to call the 3-bet, so folding would be pretty bad, especially against aggressive players with flush and straight draws on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes sense, but what hands would the SB 3 bet here that I would still be ahead of. Considering he was 3 betting an UTG raiser preflop and then betting into me on the flop after I capped I put his range of hands to be AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AKs, AJs if he 3 bet my flop raise. All of those hands I am either slightly behind or way behind other than the other AKs. And the only ones I have good outs against are the Q's and T's.

Am I limiting the number of hands he could have too much? I figure if he only calls my raise then he could have a much wider range of hands such as KQ, lower pairs, Axs etc. I guess getting 24-1 I think I only need 2+ outs to make the call good. If he 3 bets there and I call so I fold if I don't improve on the turn?

Thanks for the great feedback! I think playing over cards is easily the biggest hole in my game right now.

[J.R.]

I would three bet a flush draw in his spot, as he is 2-1 to make his flush and is getting 3-1 on his money. He could also have 2 pair, T9 for the open-ended straight draw, or perhaps just a J (as you indicated your opponents were aggressive). T9, 2 pair or just a J is perhaps unlikey in light of the out-of-position preflop 3-bet, but even if he has QQ or TT or KK you have the outs to call, and it would be reasonable for a number of one pair hands to 3-bet this flop. Point being there are hands that could 3-bet you (and many that would be correct to do so) against which you should not fold getting around 24 -1.

Folding on the turn is dependent on your read and the board etc, but I wouldn't fold on this turn picking up the gutshot.

[zram21]

Thanks again J.R. for the great feedback and thanks for that link to Crockpot's essay BottlesOf. That is also some great information.

Hero shows (K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) [Pair of Kings]
SB shows (Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) [Pair of Queens]

MHIG. Although he didn't three bet a hand that I thought he would. Thank goodness he didn't since I would have folded incorrectly. /images/graemlins/smile.gif