Check-raised with the Nuts

This happens to me about twice a year. Happened this weekend in a casino 10-20 game and included two questionable decisions. See what you think.


I am on the Button with A K s. The game is a mix of 3 tight players (me included) a couple of good players and a couple loose aggressives. 5 players limp to me (very unusual at this table) and I CALLED (?), and the blinds called.


$80 in the pot and 8 of us see the flop of J 7 4 --all of my suit. All check to me. I bet and get 3 callers.


Turn is a small red card. All check to me. I bet, get an early fold and then get check-raised by a very good, tricky, aggressive player. Other person folds and I just CALL.


River is an offsuit 8 (possible straight on board now too)--the check-raiser bets and I raise. He names my hand the nut flush and calls.


First question. How often would you just call on the button with AKs with almost everyone coming? My only thoughts were that none of them were going to fold, and that if an A or K did flop, I wanted someone to bet into me.


Second question. My rule of thumb has usually been to just call the checkraise when I have the nuts. To just call almost always gets you two more bets. If you raise back, a skilled (or even a semiskilled) player should know your holding. Seems like the Re-raise could cost you two bets. Certainly it gets them to check into you on the next round.


However, now I am thinking this over. What other factors are involved here?


With my nut flush holding, what if the board pairs on the river? He might have just improved, but if he didn't, doesn't this keep him from betting out at you again? Maybe in this situation, I have lost one bet by not re-raising on the turn. Also what if a 4th suited card hits? wouldn't that cause him to check into you also? Finally, maybe he is on some kind of "top pair with a draw" hand and does not intend to bet the river, I lose a bet by not reraising.


So, what else should I be thinking about when in situations like this?


Abe

you listed many reasons to raise again.

1) to charge 2 pair or a set

2) the river could ruin your chance to get more bets (and esp. 2 bets)

3) your opponent could have a very strong 2nd best hand and want to raise more and more.


While 3 is unlikey in this case, 1 and 2 are critical. The river can ruin your chances to collect more bets. Go to war on the turn.


As a general rule, it is usually a bad idea to slowplay the nuts. Are you guys sick of hearing this from me yet?


Good luck.


Dan Z.

"First question. How often would you just call on the button with AKs with almost everyone coming?"


Never.


I agree that you should usually just call the turn check raise and raise on the river. If he has a flush he should bet again. The only problem occurs is he has check raised with a set or two pair. This has something to do with knowing your opponent and making a judgement about him.

I feel a little grouchy today. That's my new polite way of saying I'm going to nail your ears to the wall for my own ego gratification...


This hand is WAY TOO valuable for you to wasting your time trying to figure out how to eack out some minute fraction of EV.


[1] So, after careful consideration, you have determined that the EV of calling, hehehe, is about the same as reraising. This is, therefore, a "marginal" situation.


Marginal situations are for strategy, not EV. So you should be considering how your play will affect this opponent, or other opponents, in the future. Would THIS player become more demorilized if you played tricky or if you play it straight forward? Are there other players at the table capable of the silly check-raise-fold sequence, suggesting you should 3-bet now figuring to be able to steal one later? There are other things you could be thinking about along these lines. Which will help you more later, calling or raising?


[2] You REALLY needed to see this player's hand. Say "sorry, but I'd like to see that hand". Its critical that you know whether he slow-played the flop or hit some random hand on the turn. If he really flopped something then he seems to have targeted YOU for a rare deep slow-play. This indicates that either he's a fool, you have a tell, or you are too aggressive on the button. Or perhaps he just took a shot at YOU, which can mean a lot of things like he's mad at you, he believes you fold too much against him, etc. Or maybe he's just a "tricky" player. Or maybe YOU just confuse "tricky" with "good". But if he started weak and made something on the turn, then you don't get to learn much.


[3] Also ... "He names my hand the nut flush and calls". There has just GOT to be a lot of reality understanding you can do about this player from this. He seems to be more interested in having people know he plays well than in saving money. He also seems to put quite a bit of stock in his ability to "put people on hands" by their play, suggesting HE would be a pretty good target for your other "tricky" plays. It also means he's demoralized right now so you can probably take advantage of that in a few hands.


I'm not suggesting that eacking out EV is bad, just suggesting that there are often things much more important.


- Louie

"The only problem occurs is he has check raised with a set or two pair."


This doesn't seem like much of a problem to me, since the type of opponents who would check-raise without a flush will often be willing to donate a bet or two on the river with their set or two pair. I do agree that if one knew the check-raiser had a set or two pair, however, it would be best to reraise.

... then sacrifice the extra big bet and call the river. I can't believe you would ask to see the hand you just beat heads up. It's rude, but more importantly, it just killed every loose call this guy was ever going to give you. You've just created a player who will pull everything he has into a tight ball of concentration focussed on your forehead.


I know this standard party line, but I've seen one move like this turn an easy game into a tough one.


zooey

good point zooey!

How can you say never? Raising is almost always best, but never is clearly wrong.


Preflop mistakes are small in comparison to mistakes on the more expensive streets. Against a table full of opponents who play very badly on the expensive streets it is best to call. Raising minimizes their bad play on the expensive streets by giving them better drawing odds on the play of their bad hands. It is best to keep the pot small preflop and punish them on the expensive streets when you have the best of it.

>>what else should I be thinking about when in situations like this?<<


You should be thinking about exactly which pair of socks you are wearing, because these are your lucky socks and you should wear them as often as possible when playing poker.

Thanks, Brett. hahaha


Its always a pleasure to post a hand where you made a mistake or are unsure of yourself afterwards:


--Brett has me wondering which socks WERE those.

--Louie made my ears hurt.

--Mason said he would NEVER make that play.