Kill Games, what is the right strategy?

I frequent the 10-20 games at Foxwoods with a 1/2 kill. I also will play the 5-10 with a 10-20 kill. I play these games because I am comfortable with these limits, but I actually don't enjoy the kill. I have heard of arguments for and against it.


I'd like people's views on

a) Is it a good game?

b) Is it good for the game? (I think MM comments that this is a skew to the skill end of the luck/skill spectrum).

c) How do you optimize your starting strategy?


Here are some of my thoughts.


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Arguments against the kill:

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a) you pay a 5-10 rake to play 10-20 ... same goes for 10-20. I say better just to play those games straight up.


b) it effects your hourly rate but giving up a part of every pot you win. For example, if you win a 5-10 kill pot, then you are giving up approximately $8.50 on every pot with a $10 kill blind, if you follow the 15% rule (Poker Essays 2). Perhaps it is more like $8-8.25 if you consider when you consider you have to post from SB/BB.


Arguments for it:

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a) Good players have an edge at higher limits. A lot of players are very timid when it comes to playing at higher limits, so it allows you to make profitable plays that you normally wouldn't make.


b) In some games, the 3rd blind encourages more action either by creating more money in the pot. I have also seen people call in order to maintain the kill/higher limit game.


How I play it:

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Generally, I am more aggressive in the kill game. If I am on the kill blind, I will frequently raise with marginal hands (e.g. ATo early-mid pos). Like Skalansky write in HPFAP, since folding or raising is normally right, and you can't fold ... might as well raise.


I will also try to isolate a checked kill button as well. Both of these tactics are effective for stealing blinds as well.


I am also more liberal in calling with my blinds in an unraised pot.


The only area that I am more cautious is limping before the kill button, since I realize that there may be 1 or 2 raises after the button, assuming people play those the way that I do. So i generally will limp only very rarely.


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What do people think about this? Any feedback is appreciated. I am not clear that my kill strategy is correct. It is what I have developed and it has been profitable for me (1.7 BB/hr over 200 hrs)... however, I'd always like more!

EyePeelOne,


I played the Foxwood's 10/20 kill for a day a couple of months ago when I went back east to visit family. One thing I want to point out is that the next pot is killed any time a player wins a pot over $150.


The only other place I know that has a kill is Ocean's 11. There to kill you must win two pots in a row. I'm just posting this because some may get confused if they play out here. The strategy adjustments are not the same by any means.


Regards,


Rick

The 5-10 kill kicks in at 100. I like the 5-10 game because when the kill kicks in, you will end up with some player who are not use to playing higher. I think that they do do not play as aggressive, when the limit goes up. It is a good way to get your feet wet, for the higher limit and win some bigger pots.

you're right. At Foxwoods, the kill is when any:


--5-10 pot goes north of $100 to a 10-20 kill

--10-20 pot goes north of $140 (not $150 actually ... rule change) to a 15-30 kill.

EyePeelOne,


When I first sat down the game was very tight for a while and no pot qualified so I thought we were using the Oceanside "win two and kill" rule. Once the first kill started it seemed to loosen up the game and almost every pot was killed from that point on.


For me, it was like playing 15/30 with very small blinds. With the kill out, it was harder to steal "three" blinds. I thought you had to play tighter since any pot you won was reduced by a percentage of the posted kill (I think a $15 kill has an average value of about $5 so any pot you win is reduced by about $10). But the three blinds did loosen up the game at was good once it was rolling.


Regards,


Rick

I play the Oceans 11 8/16 Kill game a fair amount.


Most of the time a kill pot seems to become like the late rounds of a tournament.


I never call if I am the first one in, always raise or fold. I usually only play group one or two hands in early or mid position.


In late position if no one has opened, I will raise almost any A, pair, or two face cards. If there are just callers, as sometimes happens, I will call with good multiway hands if I feel I am getting enough callers.


On the button I will often raise, if there are callers but no raisers. Often, this is just a semi-bluff but can take the pot if a scary board comes.


For the most part, these are not multi-way pots, so I would refer to the appropriate sections in HPFAP.


Any feedback is appreciated.

1. Be more willing to raise your kill with marginal hands in late position

2. Reraise aggressive kill raisers with better hands (ie re-raise someone who plays as in 1)

3. Remember to not value bet the river if it will take you over the kill (as you will be putting the profit back from the value bet into the next pot).

4. Play very tight if the kill is behind you

5. On marginal pot odds call remember to take out 1 SB out as you will be posting if you hit the hand, ie the money is not yours (refer to the rock game essay of MM)

6. There are other things i do but prefer not to share too much.

"3. Remember to not value bet the river if it will take you over the kill (as you will be putting the profit back from the value bet into the next pot). "


This is not a good strategy.


Vince