9-18: A bad game is a bad game - Get the Hell Out!

I played 9-18 the other night and got creamed. A new table started, mostly for people waiting for 9-18, but a few folks from 6-12 as well.


I was in late position with KQ suited. 6 Players bet, no raises. The flop comes 5 6 8 rainbow. Play checks around to me and I bet. Everyone folds except an early position player. The turn comes with a K, wrong suit. I have top pair with a decent kicker. Early position checks, I bet, he calls. A junk card comes on the river. Again, early position checks. I can't put him on anything. There are no flush possibilities. He didn't check raise on the flop or the turn and at this stage it's a guessing game. I think maybe low pair and call just in case I've missed something drastic like trips and he flips over a 4 7 unsuited! He flopped a straight and severely slow-played it! How you can play 4 7 offsuit from early position, I don't know, but he did. Thinking back on it, it was a sweet play. I'm thankful I didn't get skinned for more.


Later I'm on the BB with Kc 10c. 6 people are in. Somehow, I flop two pair! The flop comes Kd 10s 4d! I don't like the possible diamond draw at all. I check because I know that a flush is coming and I want to see how it bets out -- it's been that kind of game. It checks all the way around! What! Did I blow this one? The turn comes and sure enough, it's the 7d. But a funny thing happens -- no-one bets, including me! I'm sure there's a flush, but I'll take a chance of pairing the board for a full house if its given freely, which it is. The river comes and it's a junk 2. I check, and it goes all the way around. The dealer says to turn them over and a player in middle position turns over Ad 10d and scoops up a small pot. Three rounds with no bets, the last two when he had the nut flush! What's going on here!?


10 hands later I"m back on the BB with pocket 3's. 5 players in, no raise. The flop comes 6 7 9 and I know someone has once again flopped a straight. I check, middle position player bets and gets 2 takers. I fold. The turn brings a Q and the river a 3, no betting. Middle position player turns over 8 10. I grab what's left of my stack and say "thanks" and take off.


Am I missing something here? I recently moved up to 9-18 from 6-12 because I like that more players bet better hands. The pots they are getting seem relatively small to what they could be making and they don't seem to want to bet, even with the nut hands. Are these just timid 6-12 players who caught a 9-18 table when it opened up. Am I playing badly and just don't see it? Any ideas would help. And if I have played this poorly, please tell me -- you'll save me a lot of money! Thanks in advance.

It seems that many players don't feel like tbey're playing poker unless they can trap someone.


They're just leaving a lot of money on the table.

When you are up against timid players, it should be great opportunity to make some money. Since often when they have the good hands, they don't charge you the maxium. So when you get a decent holding, you would charge them the maxium. Plus they are easy to be pushed off a pot.


Btw, I think you lost too few dollars when you flopped top two with KTo.

"I recently moved up to 9-18 from 6-12 because I like that more players bet better hands."


first of all, there's no logic to this. why would you want to play against better players? secondly, this is not true at all: there's essentially no difference between 6-12 and 9-18 in terms of quality of players. at least that has been my experience in L.A.


"Am I playing badly and just don't see it?"


yes, quite badly in fact. please dont take offense at this, but from the examples you have posted you would do well to study the game a lot more, read 2+2.com an awful lot, read books like hold em poker by sklansky about 10 times through, and then read hpfap about ten times through AND THEN move up past 6-12. i remember making some similar posts to here a long time ago and it really helped to have people tell me i stunk so i hope it helps you.


let's look at the hands you posted: "I was in late position with KQ suited. 6 Players bet, no raises."


you should be strongly considering raising in late position with this hand because it plays nicely multiway. limping is not a big error or anything though.


"The flop comes 5 6 8 rainbow. Play checks around to me and I bet."


this is not so great. the flop missed you completely so you should just take the free card here against a large field rather than risk being checkraised. you are not going to steal the pot here by betting, not against all those players.


next hand: "Later I'm on the BB with Kc 10c. 6 people are in. Somehow, I flop two pair! The flop comes Kd 10s 4d! I don't like the possible diamond draw at all."


as well you shouldnt! you should come out betting here with 6 people in and hope it gets raised by a four flush or another K. then you can 3 bet it. you want to charge the flush draws (and straight draws) the MAXIMUM to draw out on you. that way, when they miss, you scoop a big pot and it makes up for all the times they hit. you see? so you really should never check here, even though trying for a checkraise makes sense, against a passive field you need to bet your hands.


"I check because I know that a flush is coming and I want to see how it bets out -- it's been that kind of game."


this is hoodoo talk here. the cards are running a certain way are they? you just *know* a flush is coming? you really need to completely rid yourself of any sort of non-mathematical luck-based thinking in regards to the cards. if you dont, you will never be a truly excellent serious player.


"The turn comes and sure enough, it's the 7d. But a funny thing happens -- no-one bets, including me!"


a lot of players will bet the flop with just a four flush. when it gets checked around on the flop you have to consider the fact that your hand is still probably best when the 3rd flush card comes on the turn. and again you need to charge people holding just one diamond to draw out on you. you need to bet here! these are pretty fundamental errors and you will lose money playing 9-18 until you fix them.


"The dealer says to turn them over and a player in middle position turns over Ad 10d and scoops up a small pot."


that is strange, but please dont let the results keep you from seeing that you severely misplayed that hand.

This sounds like a fantastic game. You got a free shot to beat the nuts because a player was so timid he would not bet the nuts EVER. I play against some of the worst players imaginable sometimes, and I have never seen someone check the nuts every single time in 3-6, let alone a bigger game. The timid old lady who never raises with AA will even bet the mortal nuts. I love it when people won't raise or bet with AA or KK or whatever in a 7-way field. KQs with 7-way action and no raise is profit central if people play 4-7o. You can raise because they play such horrible stuff and HOW CAN THEY 3 BET IF THEY WON"T BET THE NUTS EVER? Or you can call and just play straightforward on the flop. It might be boring because it becomes like video poker, but if you can't beat someone who never bets the nuts once.....


I'm no Lenny Martin or David Sklansky, but I might take time off of work to play this game if you'll tell us where it is. Passive games are great!!

I've never been in a game where the players don't bet the nuts. You should definitely play with those same people as many times as you can.

Hand 1: There is no reason to bet the flop. You are behind any player holding a 5,6,8,or A. Any player with a 7 has the pot odds to stay in as well. The turn looks like a good card for you, but many players play medium-rnak cards for a single bet, so you have to be careful with you king.


Hand 2: You have to bet the flop here. Why give a fludh draw a free card? You're pretty sure you're ahead, bet for value. Make the drawws pay. If the turn comes a scare card, you still have outs to your boat and can make a river decision.


Hand 3: You played fine. No reason to call.

Mike,


Thanks for the constructive criticism -- I appreciate it a lot. You gave some very good advice. Some things I even knew: I think I got a bit "head-tripped" after 1) I didn't see the straight on my first hand and 2) one player didn't bet the nut flush (even though I should have raised) and this threw me a little out of whack. At least I did what I should have ... I picked up my chips and left to re-group which meant going home and making notes.


Thanks again!

The first hand you mentioned is just what happens sometimes. Bad player will play bad cards and beat you. Not to worry,in the long run they will go broke. The K-10 hand where you flopped two pair I think was played wrong IMO. You need to bet out when you hit a hand like that. Slow playing in this situation will only cost you money. Even with the diamond draw you need to bet out in this situation to make the person drawing to the flush pay you off if it doesn't hit. The last hand you mention is also not that bad of a hand,just played poorly by the person who flopped the straight. You don't say how many players called before the man who limped in with 10-8,you never mention if it is suited 10-8,you don't say what suits hit the board. Now limping in with 10-8 in early position suited or unsuited in a typical game with a fair amount of rising is a bad play. But if the person has 3 or 4 callers before him,there isn't much preflop raising,and his cards are suited by all means I think his call here is warranted. The fold on the flop by you with that board is your only play when the man ho flopped the straight,which at that time was the nuts. His play on the turn was not so great when the queen hit,I am sure he was afraid of the J-9 but still I think a bet here is called for. If no one would have raised him I definitely think a river bet on his part was necessary as well. What I am leading up to is,the game wasn't that bad,you just seemed to have played some hands in my opinion poorly i.e. not raising KQ suited in late position and not betting out when you flopped top two pair with the diamond draw.

I usually play $4-$8...and sometimes I'll go watch the $10-$20, just to see what I'm missing. What I'm missing (at my casino, anyways,) is just about what you described. Most of the players will not bet out...but they will wait until the river to get in their punches. One guy told me that the $10-$20 has lately become "all about defense." Almost regardless of what you have, if you catch any decent part of the flop, you just check/call until the river...then it may get wild. Personally, I don't understand it, but he says that most players at the table will not bet a flopped set until the river...whether there's an apparent draw or not. Seems strange to me, but I have seen games slip into this monk-like "I can play slower than you" mode.


I wonder if you had bet into the nut straight, would the player have folded? ;-)

Sounds like a Lucky Chances game in Colma, CA. I love THAT kind of game. DoublePlay LISTEN to Mike1's comments. I think that would help.