AJs on the button

30-60. UTG, relatively weak-tight, limps; late position, loose-aggressive who plays too many hands and is a little bit on tilt also limps; I raise on the button with As-Js. Small blind folds, big blind (OK player, not too tricky or aggressive, I've known him for many years) and both limpers call. Four players, $260 pot.


Flop comes Jh-Th-8s. All check to me. I bet my top pair, Ace kicker. Big blind raises. First limper folds, second limper cold-calls. I call. Three players, $440 pot.


Turn is Ac, making board Jh-Th-8s-Ac, giving me top two pair. Big blind bets, limper raises with an emphatic bet. I've got a pretty good read on big blind that he intends to fold to the raise.


Now what?


All comments, predictions appreciated. Results tonight.

Uh, how emphatic?


It's pretty close but I'd call because the only hands you can put him on are KQ and AT, the tilt factor might let him cold call on the flop with AT, and your 4 outs plus the size of the pot probably gives you an overlay.

Andy,


You said the second pre flop limper was “loose-aggressive who plays too many hands and is a little bit on tilt. He checked the flop and cold called a checkraise on the flop with a board of Jh-Th-8s with you still able to reraise behind him.


When the turn comes an Ac he raises the flop checkraiser ”with an emphatic bet” . I interpret this to mean he is strong but not so strong he wants you hanging around. I don’t think he has KQ. A loose aggressive guy moderately on tilt comes in before the flop with a raise with KQ and probably bets the flop. He probably raises with AT or AJ before the flop after one weak tight limper. He probably raises any of the pairs that made trips on the flop (the eights might be an exception).


The pre flop limping hand that makes the most sense by far is JT. I would reraise on the turn, expect to be called, and bet the river. If he makes it four bets (and he could with JT!) you make a crying call on the turn and call his bet on the river. You can’t lay down against this type of player with these reads.


Regards,


Rick

Rick:


You said: "The pre flop limping hand that makes the most sense by far is JT. I would reraise on the turn, expect to be called, and bet the river. If he makes it four bets (and he could with JT!) you make a crying call on the turn and call his bet on the river. You can’t lay down against this type of player with these reads."


IMO, this is what the 1st limper has and not the 2nd limper. The check-raise by the 1st limper usually is a made hand that he feels needs protection. A cold call of the raise by the middle limper IMO means a drawing hand, either the hearts or the straight draw. This guy could be screwing around based on Andy's MO but it sure looks like KQ to me unless he is getting fancy with an A hearts with a 9 off kicker (flush and straight draws). I agree with your statement that a call against this type of player is correct but a raise is overpaying your hand.


Dale Duguid

You wouldn't be able to put him on a set of 10's or 8's?

I cannot see how you can't but the checkraiser on a set of 8's or 10's.

Hi Andy,


Thanks again for all the posts. They're great.


This seems more a regional phenomenon. In $20-40 and $40-80 at Lucky Chances, an emphatic bet almost always means a very strong hand, an intentional fake tell. It's one of the most consistent tells in the game. Also, you're looking at two possible straights - he might have had it on the flop too, making it more likely he's ahead. If the big blind folds, you're paying $180 to get $680 (with a four out draw to the boat after the first $120), which for me at LC's is a fold vs. most opponents. If BB stays, HE may have you beat and you're at $920 vs. $180 vs. two players, a place I don't want to be given that action.

OLblueyes:


Andy described him as a loose aggressive type and 10-10 would be in his pre-flop range of raising hands. The 88 is a possibility but this is not my read. The guy seems like he's all over the map which lends itself to a call to the river.


Dugie

Not if he's aggressive and limped after a weak tight player. Especially not with tens.

If this loose-aggressive player is playing too many hands and is currently on tilt, he could be raising with as little as a random Ace. I'd be more concered with the flop check-raise from the BB


I'd call the raise and see if the BB also does. If he also calls or raises, I'd call on the river as well unless an Ace or Jack hits. If the BB folds, I think you can get an extra bet out of the LAP.

I think go into girl scout mode and call him down. It seems he would have raised pre-flop with many of the hands that beat you, such as K-Q, J-J, 10-10, A-A. However, he might not have raised pre-flop with 8-8 and probably not Q-9. Against a tighter, non-tilting opponent I'd consider folding. Against this loose aggressive, tilting opponent I'd consider raising if I didn't already think the BB was going to fold anyway.


I hope you won, but for some reason my guess is that the limper had Q-9 and slowplayed the flop.


Caddy

Very emphatic: both quickly and with extra emphasis. I didn't think him capable, in his current mood, of a double fake. That is, I felt strong meant weak.

I've never seen this guy double-fake. In his current state of mind, I felt it was best to read him straightforwardly: strong meant weak.

I called. Big blind folded. River was a blank. Opponent bet, I called and he showed me Ah-8d for two pair and my Aces and Jacks won the pot.


I didn't think he had a set or he would have raised pre-flop and, if not (with pocket 8s), on the flop with such a coordinated, dangerous board. I also didn't think he had K-Q, as he would have also raised preflop.


I really felt the Ace helped his hand, and this meant A-T or A-8. He might not have raised pre-flop with A-T if not suited and with A-8 suited or not, but he might cold-call on the flop with a T or an 8 with the Ah. JT was also a possibility, but I felt he would have bet the flop, hoping I'd raise.


By the way, after I cold-called, big blind did indeed fold, but hesitated after I called. I think he calls with any 9 and with Q-J, so I imagine he had K-J.


I didn't raise because I suspected big blind would be folding anyway and I felt comfortable in calling because I didn't fear a double-fake raise from big blind who was genuinely disgusted by the raise. Q-9 was certainly a possibility for raiser, (although he might have made a move on the flop with the 2-flush board) but I felt the pot odds plus the possibility of a smaller two pair justified my call.


So that left Q-9, A-T or A-8; I think a fold would clearly have been wrong and a re-raise may have been right.


Thanks to all.

I must be playing in the wrong league. I never see the players in my game "faking tells"--or I am not good enough to see it. Maybe that's a good thing, I can't be faked out because I'm not looking for it.

In that case, I'm with you all the way.