Talk about this one

Internet 8-16 hand. Table is maybe a tad loose but very passive.


UTG+1 limps, I'm next and raise with AJo, player on or near the cutoff calls as does the opener (blinds fold). 3 players. Try to focus on how the opener plays this hand- he has the A3 of hearts.


[ 5h 8h Ac ]-2 hearts


A3s checks, I bet, late player raises, A3s calls, I call.


[ 5h 8h Ac ] [ Tc ]


A3s checks, I check, late player bets, A3s calls (!!!!), I call.


River blanks, checked around, my jack kicker is good. Late position player had an 8.


How would you play this hand if you had the A3s?

Besides not calling UTG+1 before the flop; I'd have played it the same way.


It sure LOOKS like he's beat pretty badly. The only way he should raise the turn is if LP is out on a limb AND Hero has a paranoid Ace that he'll call 1 bet but not 2.


If YOU LP was so aggressive that A3s should have raised him, then YOU should have raised him with your AJ.


- Louie

Well, your raise with AJo is very bad, unless everyone is so timid that they will clear out, and UTG will limp with mediocre hands but not good ones.


I think you can limp with this hand, but if the game is tough, fold. The game you described is not tough. If you had limped, UTG bets, you raise, button folds and you will win.


As the hand was played, you played it like a girl scout because you thought you were just paying off. you were lucky the 3rd player was a fool and kept betting. This player did not read very well.


Why did you feel the button would bet the turn again? I think you have to bet out if no flush card comes. You can fold if raised most of the time.


Limping UTG is ok in a loose and passive game. You raised pre-flop with an ace on board. If he bets, you will either fold or raise, and neither of these is really good for him. When it is bet and raised ahead of him, he has to think he is drawing, or the 3rd player is buying a free card and he or you has the best hand. He has no desire to knock you out if he has you beat, and ditto for another flush draw.


However, if I knew you would raise with AJ (maybe ATs too?) and then consider mucking top pair, and I knew the 3rd player was a fool, I would raise the button on the turn and make you drop that piece of junk. But not knowing these things, UTG played just fine. Flopping a pair and a flush draw is nice, but it doesn't always mean "go to war". why should he pay extra to draw?


(Continued) Good luck.


Dan Z.

Louie,


I know you're a good player- I've played with you. (I saw a picture of you as a tournament winner at LCs and recognized you). I'm surprised you would not make a semi-bluff check raise on the turn to try and drive out a better ace (by the way, I would correctly fold there). Sure LP was out of line, as it turns out, and it's only natural to assume he's got a better hand but you play with guys that over-play all the time, right? I may have posted this wrong in the sense that I revealed too many cards. I'll work on that.


Chuck

Dan,


Thanks for the comments. I really feel that I may have posted this in a way where the outcome, and the hand holdings, has influenced the replies. I like your thought process a lot but have one beef:


"As the hand was played, you played it like a girl scout because you thought you were just paying off. you were lucky the 3rd player was a fool and kept betting. This player did not read very well."


-The fool called 2 cold preflop and raised my bet on the ace high flop. I've got a player on my right who called 2 cold on the flop. Don't get me wrong, I like what I'm holding- I would estimate that my hand will be the best following the flop action 50% of the time, which is enough to continue. I just think the A3s played it like a girl scout.

I say you played it like a girl scout because you did not bet the turn or 3 bet the flop, and were willing to let a card slide off for free.


Why did you do this? because you talked loudly but carried a small stick. Now when someone plays back at you, you do not feel so hot about your hand. This is understandable, as your opponent could easily have AQ or AJs, or a set. If you had a real kicker, you wouldn't feel this way (a set is just not that likely).


The player UTG has to feel like a semi-bluff will not work, given the action on the flop and turn. It turns out that it would have, because you had a mediocre hand. But if they are up against AK, a set, or 2 pair, it simply means they pay 2-3 big bets to draw, and then get paid off less when it hits. This is quite undesirable. It should be very clear that one of UTG's 2 opponents has a better ace than they do, and there's no reason to think both player's hands are weak enough to fold on the turn. It turns out that they were in this case.


If you had a AQ or AK, would you have folded to that semi-bluff raise? Maybe, but probably not. Only because you had kicker fear, and may have been beat in 2 places, would you have folded.


BTW, part of your read, if faced with that semi bluff raise, should have been "Can this be a pair and a 4 flush?" The answer to that question should influence your decision to call/fold/reraise the UTG turn raise.


Good luck.


Dan Z.

On thing that is probably certain is that the flop raiser doesn't have AK or he would have three bet before the flop. Thus there's a chance that's he in there on a weak ace. If this is correct, and he is the type of player who can lay down, then a check raise by the Ah3h starts to make sense as a semi-bluff -- note he should have 12 outs assuming that a trey (giving him two pair) would be good.


By the way, if you were to make this check raise with the Ah3h and get called on the turn, I think you need to make a desperation bet on the river if a blank comes in the hope that your opponent(s) will fold there -- note: given the size of the pot they won't have to fold very often for your river bluff to be correct.

What is "LC"? I don't think I've EVER won a tournament worthy of a picture.

LC is Lucky Chances in Colma, CA. I guess I was mistaken.