Bet or Check?

Just got back from Vegas and I was playing $10-$20 at the Mirage. I did okay (made $150 in about 2 hours), but there's one hand that's really bugging me and I want some comments on my play of the hand.


Player to my right is a lady who seems to be a fairly solid player. I observed that she doesn't play many hands, plays agressively when she has a hand, and is capable of laying down an decent hand when there are raises.


Anyways, in this particular hand, I have Jh10h two off the button. There is an early limper, lady to my right limps, I limp, button limps, and BB calls. Five players see the flop:


Kh 7h 4c


Early limper checks, lady bets, I call with my flush draw, everyone else folds and we're heads-up. I put her on a strong king (KQ, KJ, maybe K10), but not AK because she would've raised preflop with it. The turn:


Kh 7h 4c (Jd)


She bets and I call. River:


Kh 7h 4c (Jd) (10d)


She checks and I bet. She calls and shows me Ks4s that beats me two pair. She was definitely the type of player who knew that I wasn't some clueless tourist. However, I was surprised that she checked the river. She told me that she didn't bet because she felt that I would only call with a hand that would beat her two pair like KJ or K10. She played the hand aggressively until the river so when she checked, I figured that my two pairs were good and bet my hand.


Some questions (I don't expect you guys to answer all of them):


1. Ok to limp with J10s right? I shouldn't raise here should I?


2. What about the lady limping in with K4s three off the button? Was that pretty weak of her? She definitely lost some of my respect when I saw that hand.


3. Calling on the flop ok or should I have maybe raised to get a free card? I figured this is a drawing hand and I want players in the pot.


4. Flat call on the turn ok?


5. Here are my real questions: Was my bet on the river justified? I think she should have just bet her hand on the river. What do you guys think?


Thanks in advance for your comments.

I'd say everything was fine except I probably would have raised on the turn and then checked when I didn't hit the flush.

Player to my right is a lady who seems to be a fairly solid player.


I guess you'll be changing you mind on that one.


SPM,...play long and prosper

1. I would limp with this hand. consider raising with better position and one more limper.


2. King shit suited is a cheesy hand but it sounds like the woman plays pretty well. Ray Z., Mason and others have all commented that hands like this prolly don't cost you that much if you play well after the flop. Also, even though she is a decent player maybe she came to town to gamble a little bit.


3. I would probably not raise to get a free card in this case. the button is yet to act and your hand isn't very strong as all you have is a medium flush draw and a backdoor str8. Consider the free card play maybe if you have a flush draw with overcard(s) or maybe a flush draw with a gutshot or a flush draw with middle pair. I like to find opportunities to make free card/value bets. I also take into consideration my image for the particular session.


4. flat call OK.


5. I think she played the river well.

Hi Jace. Quite a hand.


"1. Ok to limp with J10s right? I shouldn't raise here should I?"


I don't think it's ever wrong to limp, but I think it's better to raise, especially if the button is the common type of player who will be happy to limp behind a large field with all sorts of hands, but is self-programmed to not call raises without legit cause.


Look at it this way. Think of all those chips you are willing to risk over your lifetime. With two of them, right now, you can buy: leverage, maybe the button, deception, and some raised eyebrows from your opponents (man, that kid's got some spunk).


I think it's a fair price.


"2. What about the lady limping in with K4s three off the button? Was that pretty weak of her? She definitely lost some of my respect when I saw that hand."


Don't be so quick. I suspect that if you (and the button) had been playing a zippier game, she'd have mucked preflop. And look here, she was right. You had exactly the type of hand that, if you'd been raising with them earlier from the last two seats, she might have mucked K4s this time.


"3. Calling on the flop ok or should I have maybe raised to get a free card?"


With three players behind, I think playing make-a-hand is smart.


"4. Flat call on the turn ok?"


Were you going to call the river? If yes, I think raising is better. If no, then calling is better.


"Was my bet on the river justified?"


Definitely.


"I think she should have just bet her hand on the river."


This reflects on her read of you. Her check is a nod of respect, suggesting (and then saying) that she gave you credit for mucking a bad king or second pair.


Do you think you would have?


I'd have bet the river with her hand because I'd expect another king right behind me to make a move at some point, and because no one played back at me at any point it means I could still have the same draw of pocket pair or second pair that I was betting with from the start, meaning any pair might pay off. Oh, you're out of rope? Here. Use mine.


Tommy

Her river check was a good play.


1) If you were playing a king, it could very well be KT - you would probably rasie with a better king before.


2) your most likely hand is a flush or straight draw. So why no let you bluff. You cannot have a king and a flush draw.


3) Your flush draw could be Qh9h, giving you a straight.


So I think she made the right play. Your bet is debatable - the J and T are vere likely kickers for her king. But against most (i.e. not good) players, bet.

"Her river check was a good play."


I thought so too at first glance, even though I knew I would have bet. She had me second guessing myself, until this aspect of the hand came into focus:


"1) If you were playing a king, it could very well be KT - you would probably rasie with a better king before."


Wouldn't he raise with ANY king? The greater this likelihood, the worse her check. Given the large field, and the possible draws, and that two players had checked to the woman, I think most players would raise any king sitting right behind her. Calling there is just lame, and not a 2+2 approved play, right?


Tommy

Jace,


You asked ”1. Ok to limp with J10s right? I shouldn't raise here should I? “


Unless the button is reaching for chips to raise (in which case I fold) calling is usually correct with this hand after two limpers. But with several more limpers I like a raise for value and to “buy the button” (which is not necessary if the button if folding out of turn). Raising should also be considered against tight blinds and weak limpers who will play predictable after your show of strength.


”2. What about the lady limping in with K4s three off the button? Was that pretty weak of her? She definitely lost some of my respect when I saw that hand. “


Even the players who appear to play tight are too loose (for their own good) in most games. So YOU should save Kx suited for late position blind attacks and the button or cutoff seat after weak players have limped. Don’t call strong limpers even with the button and don’t call from the cutoff if your opponent on the button often raises (and he doesn’t reach early).


”3. Calling on the flop ok or should I have maybe raised to get a free card? I figured this is a drawing hand and I want players in the pot.”


Usually call unless you have overcards with your draw. Note that on this hand the player on your right bet so you would be driving players out. In this spot you really want overcards or an ace high draw.


”4. Flat call on the turn ok?”


You should have considered raising. You were head up with a decent pair and draw against a player capable of making a laydown with a questionable pair or kicker (i.e., the Las Vegas mid limit regular). You probably have at least nine and perhaps fifteen outs if called. If reraised you have seven clean outs (in which case you would raise a river bet) and two iffy ones.


”5. Here are my real questions: Was my bet on the river justified? I think she should have just bet her hand on the river. What do you guys think?


Your river bet was for value given you made two pair made backdoor. You don’t have to win all or even most of your value bets. In fact, in a situation like this were she will probably call your bet and almost never checkraise (based on this betting pattern), you only have to believe that you are a little better than even money to bet. Had I not known the results I would guess you win about about 2/3rds of the time in this spot. If I’m right then you lose money (in this case one third of a big bet) by checking it down. BTW, it doesn’t matter what she should have done. Do note what she did do for future reference.


Regards,


Rick

Jace,


You asked ”1. Ok to limp with J10s right? I shouldn't raise here should I? “


Unless the button is reaching for chips to raise (in which case I fold) calling is usually correct with this hand after two limpers. But with several more limpers I like a raise for value and to “buy the button” (which is not necessary if the button if folding out of turn). Raising should also be considered against tight blinds and weak limpers who will play predictable after your show of strength.


”2. What about the lady limping in with K4s three off the button? Was that pretty weak of her? She definitely lost some of my respect when I saw that hand. “


Even the players who appear to play tight are too loose (for their own good) in most games. So YOU should save Kx suited for late position blind attacks and the button or cutoff seat after weak players have limped. Don’t call strong limpers even with the button and don’t call from the cutoff if your opponent on the button often raises (and he doesn’t reach early).


”3. Calling on the flop ok or should I have maybe raised to get a free card? I figured this is a drawing hand and I want players in the pot.”


Usually call unless you have overcards with your draw. Note that on this hand the player on your right bet so you would be driving players out


”4. Flat call on the turn ok?”


You should have considered raising the turn. You were head up with a decent pair and draw against a player that appears capable of making a laydown with a questionable pair. You probably have at least nine and perhaps fifteen outs if called. If reraised you have seven clean outs (in which case you would raise a river bet) and two iffy ones.


”5. Here are my real questions: Was my bet on the river justified? I think she should have just bet her hand on the river. What do you guys think?


Your river bet was for value given you made two pair made backdoor. You don’t have to win all or even most of your value bets. In fact, in a situation like this were she will probably call your bet and almost never checkraise (based on this betting pattern), you only have to believe that you are a little better than even money to bet. Had I not known the results I would guess you win about approximately 2/3rds of the time in this spot. If I’m right then you lose money (in this case one third of a big bet) by checking it down.


BTW, it doesn’t matter what she should have done. Do note what she did do for future reference.


Regards,


Rick

.... the forum software is behaving strangely and I didn't think this first post took when I refreshed my browser. The one below is 99% the same.

In my post above I thought Jace had a decent value bet after she checked the river. My guess was that he should win about 2/3 of the time (pretend you don’t know results). Maybe 2/3 of the time was a bit of a high estimate but don’t you see KQ as the most common checking hand in this spot? Would this opponent check KJ or KT in this spot?


In other words, am I too frisky with my value bets or is my reasoning flawed?


Regards,


Rick

I agree- very unlikely he has a king. This is even less reason for her to bet - she should try to pick off a bluff.

1. Limping or raising with J10s is debatable. It depends on the players in your game and especially who is to act behind you. But limping can't be considered outright wrong.


2. I don't consider K4s an automatic raising hand. It plays well as a flush draw but you could find yourself trapped if you flop top pair with a weak 4 kicker. In your game, the lady got lucky to flop 2 pair. I certainly wouldn't lose respect for anybody who isn't raising with that kind of hand. Kx suited is overrated by a lot of people.


3. Raising on the flop can often buy you a free card but when I flop two pair (especially with top pair), I'll reraise anybody who uses that play. I'll charge them an extra small bet to draw out on me. In this situation, I would have raised since I never would have put the lady on two pair since the flop was King, rag, rag. I would have put her on the same type of hand you did (KQ, KJ, or K10).


4. I don't see any reason to raise on the turn if you didn't do it on the flop.


5. I think both your thinking and the lady's was sound. By calling all the way, she would have put you on a flush draw, straight draw (5,6), or Kings with a better kicker than 4 (K,J and K,10 are reasonable). Obviously you wouldn't call with a busted draw and would probably raiser her if you made a better Kings-up. If you were playing with a non-suited King, it's reasonable that you have a J or 10 since you hadn't raised pre-flop with AK or on the flop with KQ. There's no way the lady could have put you on Js and 10s.


I also think your thought process was sound. When the lady didn't be the river, I would have most likely concluded that she had a lone pair of Kings or possibly a busted draw. Since she'd probably call with a lone pair of Kings, I would have bet just as you did thinking that my two pair was good.

Jace suggested in the initial post that K4s was an automatic raising hand for the lady in about middle position (perhaps I misread, but I think she implied that with her "loss of respect" comment).


This is a hand I would never raise with in early position, middle position, or even late position if there are several limpers. Do other people play this hand differently? I've always believed Kxs is a dangerous hand because flopping top pair runs into the risk of someobody having Kings with a better kicker. If you won't muck after flopping top pair, you're going to lose money.


When do you raise with Kxs?


And, if you flop top pair with out a flush draw, how do you play the hand?

I agree with your reasoning. I don't know how anyone could check top two in this spot and who would've guessed she had K-4?

"When do you raise with Kxs?"


Only when opening late.


"And, if you flop top pair with out a flush draw, how do you play the hand?"


With justifiably high hopes.


Tommy

Dynasty,


I think there's some miscommunication here or maybe my post wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that my opponent (who I perceived to be a good player) would raise with K4s preflop. In fact, I'm pretty sure she'd never do that. I think I loss some respect for her for playing it in the first place. Then I started to think about your sub-topic of playing Kxs in general.


Under what conditions do you play this hand? I'm thinking that limping in with Kxs in early position is probably not that great a play. But how about limping in with it (or even raising) in late position?

in a tough game all i would do with it is open-raise from mid-late position. other wise it's an easy muck.


in an better game i will limp sometimes in mid/late position against a generally weak timid field. even when i do this in these situations i find myself cringing inside more and more. i foresee myself mucking this more and more in the future. (incidentally, the same weening procedure as been happening to me with hands like T9o, i muck them even in late position usually now--even in the easier games).