Do you trust your read?

[steeser]

Down to the final 3 in last nights $10 rebuy on Stars. I have about 1.2M in chips, the two others have about 1.7M.

Blinds are 20K/40K, and I pick up QQ on the button. I make it 120K to go, and the SB raises to 200K. My aces meter immediately goes off, as the other times I have seen him raise it has been a much larger raise. What's your course of action from here? Play it for set value?

I ended up saying to hell with it and pushed (hey, it was late) and he called with KK. The board was 942AA.

The other thing I was thinking was calling the raise, and seeing what flopped. Short of folding, based on that flop, I think I still have to play that hand. My read wasn't overly strong, as he could have been on AK, JJ or TT, but it just didn't feel right to me.

Is there anyone here (aside from Phil Hellmuth) who can let this hand go at any time? I couldn't do it 3 handed.

[fnurt]

Calling for set value is surely better than folding. But you have QQ 3-handed, oy. I don't know if I could ever trust a read that much, at least online.

I was multitasking last night and twice I accidentally hit the raise button with crappy hands when the window popped up at the wrong moment. I was not your opponent in this case, mind you. But I could have been /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[gcDanno]

To be honest with you, I just can't believe that I would have been able to muck them myself. This has to be a leak in my game?

Considering I only saw 1 QQ and 1 KK in the same game (in 301 hands), I definitly would have had trouble letting it go without a fight. I busted out of this game 27th.

Congrats on your finish.

I didn't know you were 2+2 when you were berating "dust8" for calling 50% of his chips with K6s. I just kept quiet, hoping for a chance to get some action from this player, but I was soon moved and apparently dust8 made another poor call, this one costing him as he busted out in the 70's. And he had such a huge stack. No big surpise.

[Jason Strasser]

Alright, Im sick of hearing of all the 2+2ers in this tourny. Its the frekin zoo for crying out loud! I'm gonna play in it tonight.

Anyhow, with regards to the hand. I suck, but I can't fold here. I would probably call, and end up pushing on the flop.

A good player folds I guess, I can't. You could be phil h and fold everytime you have queens though. Just a thought. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[cferejohn]

Personally, I have a rule:

I never fold QQ preflop against a single player online. Period. This rule has helped me more often than it has hurt me (I've made "crying calls" with QQ only to find AK, JJ, or worse more often than I've actually run it into AA/KK). Maybe someday there will be an online tournament with deep enough stacks that I will feel like I can sniff out a KK or AA, but not today...

Seriously though, any decent shorthanded player would make this raise with alot of hands that you beat. AK, JJ, TT, probably AQ, and maybe even a couple worse aces or pairs than that.

[DougBrennan]

The only way I'd lay this hand down is if the computer malfunctioned and showed me his hole cards.

Come to think of it, even then I'd probably think, "Hey, the server's screwed up, so that probably isn't even what he has." And I'd push just as you did. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

You're right, WAY too many 2+2ers are discovering this tourney. Perhaps we should wear lapel pins or something.

Doug

[steeser]

[ QUOTE ]

I didn't know you were 2+2 when you were berating "dust8" for calling 50% of his chips with K6s. I just kept quiet, hoping for a chance to get some action from this player, but I was soon moved and apparently dust8 made another poor call, this one costing him as he busted out in the 70's. And he had such a huge stack. No big surpise.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I wasn't berating him, I was actually asking a question of him. It was a buddy of mine he busted out. I had been following the table while playing mine, and my buddy had made a move on him earlier and showed it. I was just shocked that he picked the time to take a stand with K6s. Maybe it seemed like berating, but I thought I phrased it legitimate, asking him if he thought he was ahead. His response was "possibly, because the move had been put on him before." and I left it at that. I did see he busted pretty quick thereafter.

I saw you playing too, think I've seen you a lot in this tourney. Where did you finish?

As for the hand that busted me out, I feel better that everyone has said they would play this hand. I was annoyed that my read was right on, but I just felt like QQ 3 handed was too good of a chance to pass up, and if he has AA or KK, then it's not in the cards for me.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, WAY too many 2+2ers are discovering this tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

And we had this one all to ourselves for so long, Doug! Yuck. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Ian J]

This is all heard from friend of a friend, but with all the Phil Hellmuth bashing going on, I figured it was relevant.

Heard this from a friend of a guy who was at the WSOP. He picked up AA at some point at the same table as Phil and before he even acted on his hand Phil looked at him and said "You have Aces don't you?"

Just a story, the man possibly is that good. The hands he laid down KK, QQ, etc., he very well could have been behind.

[Jason Strasser]

It was tongue and cheek. How could anyone argue with his results? This is not about PH. Anyway--what time is the one that you all play in? I'm at work now...

[DougBrennan]

I play in the 7:15 PM PST rebuy almost everynight, and I usually see Che there one or two nights a week. In addition to those in this thread, I've seen eMarkM, JoeTall, cferejohn, wayabvpar, and, on one memorable occassion, Chris Moneymaker play this tourney.

I wasn't at Moneymaker's table, but assumed he just felt like playing some poker that night. He was out fairly early as I recall.

The percentage of rebuy period maniacs has gone way down, and I've run into lots of pretty solid players. This tourney used to be an overlay, but I'm not so sure anymore.

Doug

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]

The percentage of rebuy period maniacs has gone way down, and I've run into lots of pretty solid players. This tourney used to be an overlay, but I'm not so sure anymore.
Doug

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that sometimes, and then I end up at a wild table in one of these things. The crazies are still out there, and I think there are players that react to the crazies by becoming crazies themselves.

In any case, there are still plenty of good old garden variety bad loose players...

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Why not play it in such a way you can get him to make a mistake? Its very hard to make a mistake when looking at an all in bet preflop.

You can reraise him without getting pot commited and see If he puts in the 4th raise.

When you push in on him, There is probably only 2-3 hands that will call you, and only 1 of them are making a huge mistake. All others are folding.

AA/KK are always calling, JJ may call, but rarely. AK will probabably call thinking your trying to push him out and he rarely is behind that far behind when you push all in on him. Why would KK and AA overbet the pot that much when they found someone willing to give them action?

He min raises because he wants a call. He knows you can raise with any 2 in that position and he knows he's very far ahead almost all of the time. He's trying to trap you. Try and turn that trap around or at least escape from it.

You have enough chips to play post flop.

Pushing in after a minraise, will only get you knocked out or you miss out on a lot of chips he is about to bluff off. You always want to see a flop when you have 30BB worth of chips.

You can NEVER fold any 2 cards after a min re-raise when your stacks that deep. If you hit the flop hard he's paying you off with his monster and you'll get picked on constantly when you go for a steal.

MarkV.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
You can reraise him without getting pot commited and see If he puts in the 4th raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting another minimum raise? That *almost* doesn't pot commit you, but if your opponent understands why you are making that raise, he should go in with any two cards at that point since your plan is to muck to an all-in.

Any larger raise certainly does pot commit you.

In any case, I will stand by the statement that laying down QQ preflop in a three handed pot is a mistake.

[steeser]

I tend to agree that pushing was wrong. I could have called and saw the flop, but with that flop (all little rags), he would have likely made a big raise and I would have been in the position of mucking QQ on a beautiful board.

My only real chance was when the ace hit the turn, I could have represented it, although the card would have scared me bad too. Had I represented the ace, there is still a decent chance he would have called me with his KK.

Overall, just a bad situation to be in with QQ in a 3 handed finish.

[MVicuna]

[ QUOTE ]
In any case, I will stand by the statement that laying down QQ preflop in a three handed pot is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand by your statement too, except in the cases when you get min-raised. Then you need to start putting them on hands that want action. I call an all-in faster then I call a min-raise with QQ when its 3 handed. People intentionally 'under' play monsters 3 handed to get more action because they feel their hand is to good to win 'just the blinds' and try and bust you.

[ QUOTE ]
but if your opponent understands why you are making that raise, he should go in with any two cards at that point since your plan is to muck to an all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think an opponent who min-raises with AA/KK is sophisticated to realize your raising for information? He is exactly the opposite. He's allowing the size of his bets to leak information. His thought process is this. "I have AA/KK and someone is raising! Yippie! I don't want to scare him away by making to big of a raise. So I'll min raise!" He is displaying classic 1st level thinking.

And you'll do this probably only 1 time so you dont have to worry anyone will notice. QQ vs the overpair isn't going to happen again 3 handed.

I go bust here to probably, but not because I push in on the flop or preflop, but because I will raise him on the flop no matter what hits if he bets and push in on the turn if he checks to me when the A hits.

Give them chances to fold. If your commiting all of your chips with this hand it doesnt matter where you push in, so do it in places where you *might* make a better hand fold. Preflop isn't one of the places a better hand then QQ will fold only worse ones.

MarkV.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Give them chances to fold. If your commiting all of your chips with this hand it doesnt matter where you push in, so do it in places where you *might* make a better hand fold. Preflop isn't one of the places a better hand then QQ will fold only worse ones.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but worse hands than QQ will also fold preflop. If you call here and get JJ to fold on the flop, when he would have called beforehand, then you've made a mistake. I'd have to know my opponent pretty well to do anything other than push...

[MVicuna]

Hi,

You seem to know your opponent pretty well to assume he'd call the 3rd raise all-in with JJ. I guess I'm too weak-tight as I'd fold JJ to the 3rd raise if I wasn't pot commited even 3 handed and even if calling would leave me enough chips to come back if I lost.

But thats me, I like to see flops and make my decisions there.

MarkV.