Slowplay or pound

I had AJ in the BB. The player two off the button open-raised and all folded to me and I called.


I flopped the nut straight (K-Q-10). I check-raised the flop and he three bet.


Your turn.


I went with my usual approach in out-of-position situations like this which is to chunk chips into the pot at every opportunity. So I four bet on the flop, and he folded. (!)


(Subtopic: If he had not folded, I wouldn't have even thought to ask about this hand. Major case of results disease on my part. I've been thinking lately that being motivated to post about a mid-hand situation because of how the hand turned out is too natural a tendency to criticize, as I've done in the past.)


Player profile: Not enough hours with him to give helpful details, meaning I didn't have much to go on either, except I knew he wasn't timid. I think he would have three-bet with any pair-and-a-straight-draw in which his straight draw was a jack or an ace.


I'm wondering, if he could fold to that fourth bet, could he have had a hand where slowplaying would have squeaked a big bet out of him later?


Weighting the other side of the scale are these situations in which he does not fold on the flop:


1) I will win 2 BB, turn and river combined, whether I four-bet or not, meaning I lose 1SM by not 4-betting.


2) I will win 3BB instead of 2, turn and river combined, because I did not four-bet on the flop. +1SB to the slowplay.


3) He will call the turn and fold the river no matter what I do on the flop. +1SB to fastplaying.


4) Lots more, but hopefully the short list will serve to show how I was thinking about the hand afterwards.


Yeah, results disease bigtime here. Seems to me like fourbetting would make the most in the long haul. And only because he folded, I'm second guessing.


Tommy

I think pound.


All fold to a late position raiser. Means lots of high cards in the deck or in his hand. If he can call 4 bets, he has to have a hand that can get there in one card, like KK QQ or TT, or the lesser valued KQ. And you hold none of his outs, except for a J which could get him half. The four bet gets his money now, and gets you the info you need. If he comes with you for 4 bets, you know exactly what beats you, and can go tortoise if the board pairs.


If you smooth call, thinking check raise on the turn, he may have bought himself the free card he needs, and checks the turn with the intention of folding if the river blanks.If you smooth call and bet the turn, he won't have the pot odds to go for a small outer on the river and will just fold unless he has a set, which he would have called you down with on the four bet.


I could have saved myself a lifetime of carpal tunnel syndrome by just saying "When in doubt, pound" but what fun would that be?

Well, I think your alternative to 4 betting the flop has to be leading the turn. Any broadway card is dangerous, because you could end up splitting the pot, or losing to a full (I think 2 pair for your opponent is a real possibility). I wouldn't risk a free card by trying to checkraise.


So, if your opponent will fold if you lead at him on the turn, you might as well 4 bet now and give him the chance to fold immediately. If he won't fold if you lead at him on the turn, then he probably won't fold to one more small bet now. So I guess I'm saying that I like the 4 bet.


Having said that, I have a question to ask, Tommy: what other hands would you 4-bet here?

You opponent is getting 11.5:1 odds on the last flop call. Your betting is also consistant with fast playing a set on a scary board. He shouldn't put you on the pure nuts, necessarily. So, he should think he has outs to draw to a straight as well.


It could be that your opponent was just fooling around, and you weren't going to get any more bets anyway. There's also a chance that it was a mistake for him to fold, and calling wouldn't have been a big mistake anyway. I wouldn't sweat your 4-bet.

Tommy,


Sticking with your normal "no slowplay out of position plan" sounds fine against an unknown opponent or a known one who tends to be aggressive on early rounds. If you just call his three bet it is too easy for your opponent to check behind you on the turn. He might do this when he has a draw, a draw/pair, or a pair he wants to go to the river with cheaply (i.e., for one more big bet). Playing fast doesn't let him and these hands will be far more common than his big hands.


One problem is that against observant opponents you need to find hands somewhat worse than the nuts that you are also willing to put in this level of action. If not, you might be better off balancing your play when you have the nuts by not playing so fast on an early round.


Regards,


Rick

The way it went down, this hand should be EXTREMELY profitable for you. Now you know you can take a shot at him in the future (such as if you had QJ), and it will probably work so long as he doesn't see you take shots at other people.


You can also peg this guy as willing to make weak "free card" or "find out where I'm at" or "bully" raises from late position.


Not only do all clouds have a silver lining; but some clouds are not clouds at all.


- Louie

Tommy,


You are out of position, so if you smooth call what do you do on the turn. If you lead into him he probably folds anyway. If you don't he gets a free card to catch up and chop the pot with you.


Derrick

I vote pound and not slowplay. The pot is large and a board of K-Q-T means that you could easily get counterfeited by an ace or a jack on a later street and either split the pot or simply lose your market. If he has a set or two pair, he has many outs to run you down with two cards to come. Regardless, you need to keep firing while you still have the gun.

"Having said that, I have a question to ask, Tommy: what other hands would you 4-bet here?"


Good question. The answer is, none! I was going to say a set, but with KK, QQ I would have reraised before the flop and led out, meaning the order is reversed (as opposed to check-raising), so I could not be in position to put in the fourth bet.


That leaves 10-10, a hand I'd sometimes three-bet preflop and sometimes not. Let's say I didn't, and I check-raised the turn, and he reraised. I can't say without being there, but it's dang likely I'd just call three-bets on the flop and bet the turn if no ace, jack or nine comes. I might still bet anyway, but I doubt I'd four-bet the flop, and that was the question.


With J-9, a straight, I'd fold preflop. So I guess the answer really is none. Dang, maybe he DID fold a real hand. Shit! lol


Tommy

"One problem is that against observant opponents you need to find hands somewhat worse than the nuts that you are also willing to put in this level of action. If not, you might be better off balancing your play when you have the nuts by not playing so fast on an early round."


Yeah, this occured to me while replying to Muffin.


Still, hmmm, I dunno. This was such a rare situation, that I saw the flop at all from the BB, that I flopped the nuts. I gotta think that even an observant opponent wouldn't have much history to go on.


Tommy

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Tommy,


It doesn't matter that you were in the blind that much. I think you want to pound almost any time you are head up (or get head up) with a very good to nut hand when out of position.


Regards,


Rick