It's hard to give credit where it's due at these limits

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

The villain here played too many hands and the table in general would go all the way to the river with barely anything against even the scariest board. I realize the river was bad on my part - I should've either just called the raise or check/call. The flop call may have been a bit loose as well, but I figured to have good implied odds with this table if I hit an Ace or improved towards my flush or runner-runner straights and planned to check/fold on the turn if nothing hit. Also, people had been betting flops like this with not even top pair. Any other comments?


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Results later (it's pretty obvious what happened anyway).

[Bill Smith]

A guy like this won 30 BB on my table last night (about 10 BB of which was mine). He caught river trips with 3 overs one hand, then called down with KJo with a pair and flush draw on board to catch a river J to take down my AK 4-flush. Great read gone terribly wrong.

So, anyway... pocket 8's I take it?

[bisonbison]

I'd fold the flop, check-call the turn and probably 3-bet the river, but you see how I don't have to do the other things cause I folded the flop?

[PublickStews]

Pocket 10s?

[tech]

The flop call is more than just a bit loose, IMO. The pot is small, and you have nothing. With a paired board you don't really even have odds for a check/call on the turn. Play tight in small pots.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

I had put him on a King - something like KQ or KJs. I was partially right, as he had KTo. Sometimes being partially right (and putting too much stock in it) is worse than being completely off.

I may be over-rationalizing my bad play here, but... I stuck with this hand because I had way too many times at this table dropped hands to aggressive multi-way raises, re-raises, etc, only to see something like a flopped middle pair take the showdown. This wasn't my typical play (good thing), but was a way-too-costly 'mix-it-up'.

This brings me to my overall question regarding these kinds of tables. It's not terribly uncommon to be at a table where multiple people raise, go all the way to the showdown, and something shitty like a flopped or turned middle pair or even a medium pocket pair (even winners as low as K-high!) wins a freaking showdown that was raised multiple times, several of which my hand would've won if I stayed in. I don't think it's too weak to throw away top pair to the kinds of raises I was seeing, but at what point do you have to start calling down? I've been getting pushed off a lot of hands, but I don't think I've been making weak-tight plays. I'll have to see if I can find a good HH to illustrate these hands.

[lowroller]

I agree Patrick! This is the HARDEST part about micro-limit poker/.5-1 Party. My first posts here were "I laid down TPTK to insane action only to find...."

I lose most of my $ in hands like these where:

1. Early on, give too much credit to people for the hands they are representing.

2. Get tired of laying down winners or not maximizing my wins because of reason #1.

3. Decide that I will push my TPTK/premium, non-nut hands "all the way" in an effort to maximize my wins against these types of opponents.

4. Get into a cycle of maximizing my losses and minimizing my wins because when I "zig", they end up "zagging".

This has been the hardest part of my game to get into synch with.

[Xiphoid]

Definite flop fold.

Re-play this scenario a million times trying to catch runner-runner flush or an A and you'll lose a lot of money. Think of it that way... it might have worked this time, but in the long-run, it won't.

There's definitely not enough players in to give you odds here.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree Patrick! This is the HARDEST part about micro-limit poker/.5-1 Party. My first posts here were "I laid down TPTK to insane action only to find...."

I lose most of my $ in hands like these where:

1. Early on, give too much credit to people for the hands they are representing.

2. Get tired of laying down winners or not maximizing my wins because of reason #1.

3. Decide that I will push my TPTK/premium, non-nut hands "all the way" in an effort to maximize my wins against these types of opponents.

4. Get into a cycle of maximizing my losses and minimizing my wins because when I "zig", they end up "zagging".

This has been the hardest part of my game to get into synch with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly.

It's like I really can't feel safe going to the river and a showdown unless I have the absolute nuts because it's a complete crapshoot as to what they have. That's weak.

It's for reasons like this that I wonder if it really helps your game to learn the extremely small limit game when starting out or if it just grinds bad habits into you that you've gotta break (sorry - adjust) when you move up anyway. I'm winning (so far - with a very limited online sample - I play B&amp;M too), but I honestly don't see how winning at $0.5/$1 translates into winning at higher limits. I know I've heard and completely agree with all the "if you can't beat the worst games then you (some variation on 'suck')" and "you want people to play like this", but playing these limits and playing even small stakes (2/4 or 3/6) are two different things.

[SnakeRat]

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly don't see how winning at $0.5/$1 translates into winning at higher limits. .

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the idea is to be a winning poker player you have to be able to adapt situationally to your opponents along with a solid grasp of all the other important factors when making choices.

Obviously the game is different at higher limits so you will have to make adjustments. Right now you are learning how to make these adjustments against a variety of tables at the micros.

Learning how to learn and adjust at a poker table is how I see the winning translating into higher stakes.

[josie_wales]

Patrick, I have seen a lot of guesses, but none are right.

Your friend takes it down with 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif-8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Bummer

josie wales

[SnakeRat]

-Josie
Doubtful he had 10-8 since he already revealed he had K-10. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[afk]

If you have him on a king on the flop then you REALLY have to fold. You're drawing to 3 outs, the pot is small, and your implied odds won't even come close to making this call correct. The flop is an easy fold in my opinion.

[cnfuzzd]

if its really bothering you to lay down all your good hands to such aggressive play, find a less aggressive table. Think of it this way, would you sit at a 30/60 table if you knew that it would almost always be at least two bets to you on the flop. I hope not. Unless you go out for that sort of thing.

peace

john nickle

[afk]

Of course not, but I don't consider his hand on the flop here to be 'good'.

[ArchAngel71857]

but I honestly don't see how winning at $0.5/$1 translates into winning at higher limits.

why not?

you think at higher limits its the same 15 hands at every showdown? Granted most higher limit players have some hand selection, but it isn't the end all of the game. Due to bankroll considerations, I have been forced to drop back down to .50/1 and I am amazed at how soft and easy the game is. The hardest part for me is sticking to ABC poker and not getting tricky. If you can't see why your flop call is extremely poor, then you won't be able to beat higher limit games.

-AA

[Rah]

The reasons you explain is just why microlimit poker is so educational. This is where you are taught the important concept of discipline!
If you start to tilt after a few bad beats, it's great to find that out while playing low limit. That's why I believe low limit is great for learning - when you've played a lot of hours and still is making a few BB every hour, this means that you've been able to cope with bad losses and bad streaks without playing bad, but have still been able to maximize your earnings when the odds are favourable. Knowing this, you can safely move to the next limit.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop call may have been a bit loose as well, but I figured to have good implied odds with this table if I hit an Ace or improved towards my flush or runner-runner straights and planned to check/fold on the turn if nothing hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (4 SB) K, 6, T (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, SB folds, Hero calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your implied odds all just folded. Fold the flop.

b

[Ralph Wiggum]

Other than PF, every other street was misplayed. I assume the other posts have addressed this, since they are numerous &amp; I don't plan to read them.