09-05-2001, 08:34 AM
OBSERVATIONS ON OVER AGGRESSIVE PLAYERS
These past number of sits have been particular interesting for me. Over the last few weeks, I have played in my usual poker games and have been reflecting on the different sittings. I have not had spectacular results by any stretch of the imagination. I am playing my usual game with usual results. What I do find interesting though is a trend of the regular core of players I play with and how aggressive they are.
I had a discussion on the ride home with a poker friend of mine (whom I owe a Fairbanks Steak dinner) regarding the different players (regulars) in the games in which we all play. The one thing we did not discuss which I thought about today was the over-aggressive play many of these players posses. Tendencies include pushing over cards all the way to the river, continually check-raise bluffing the turn (but rarely the river), pre-flop raising with any 2 cards (94 off comes to mind) when in late position with no one else in, Pushing an under pair with 4 over cards on board, etc. etc. etc. Much of our discussion last night focused on hand reading. He thinks it is an area he needs to work on. It is an area I constantly try to work on. After realizing how aggressive the games in our area are, I believe it to be extremely important.
There is a core of 5-10 players who will cold call raises and play as many hands as possible. Players playing a lot of hands are more difficult to put on a hand. However, I believe it is still possible if one is able to understand why they play so many hands. I believe I have discovered the reason why some of the regulars in our game play so many hands. They all think they can outplay each other every hand!! They all are very aggressive after the flop, they have decent to good hand reading abilities, and they play well after the flop with or without position. I understand and agree with the concept of true experts playing a few more hands. I think that all of these players truly believe they are experts/great players as they always try to outplay their opponent every hand no matter what the board and what they hold. Trying to outplay your opponent every hand is obviously the correct strategy. However, when a player plays 8 hands in a row for a raise, I would argue that it is impossible to outplay your opponents enough to take down all 8 pots. I have witnessed this mad shootout now for weeks and am fascinated by it.
Lets look at this concept a little further. Is it possible to outplay your opponent every hand? I would argue that it is. There is no doubt a correct play to outplay your opponent each and every hand. I will point to the Theory of Poker for this. I am also not asking if this is profitable as we all know it is because folding and saving money is to be considered outplaying your opponent since saving money is the same as making money. What I am asking, is it possible to WIN enough of these pots to make it MORE profitable than correct hold-em play following an expert strategy.
I would argue that it is not. By their play, these opponents are telling me they believe otherwise.
If asked, each of these players will tell you they are big winners in the game. I find it difficult to understand how a player can play 70% and more of hands they are dealt and still be a winner. I am not a statistical genius, but I am sure that I personally could not do this. My question is, can anyone? Is anyone good enough to play 2-3 times as many hands as the other players in the game and still be profitable? If so, would correct strategy be to always be over-aggressive while playing all of these hands?
I know of only one player I have ever played with who plays way too many hands and is still a big winner in the game. He is not over aggressive at all. He simply sees a lot of flops and then has an incredible ability to always know where he is and hardly ever gets trapped or pays off. He is the only player I have ever seen play this way and win. The majority of players I play with are the over aggressive type who play and push far too many hands and are not winners in the game. The true expert to whom I am referring usually tortures these over aggressive players. He catches them speeding all the time.
Many players love an action game with huge pots. While I play in this type of game very regularly, I am not sure it is my favorite or even most profitable. Personally, I like a few more passive opponents in the game. Continually playing with these super-aggressive opponents forces me to really play my A game. I find this to be good for my game, however, I am not sure if this type of game is the most profitable.
The games I have been playing in the last few months remind me of low-limit online games where everyone plays any 2 cards all the way no matter what the board or action. Reflecting back on hands turned over, I am truly amazed at the plays I see made. I cannot even fathom that they are correct, and know they will only lose money long term. I see these plays being made by players I once considered to be decent players; although I must confess, the recent patterns in a couple of players is really forcing me to rethink my position of respecting these players as good. At best, I am beginning to believe they are break even to small winners in the local games, but would get crucified if they were to travel and play.
By no means am I disrespecting this type of player. I would never do that because they have the ability to cost me more than anyone. Actually, just the opposite is true. I really respect them and try to avoid too many confrontations. The most beautiful thing is that none of them see ANY leaks in their games whatsoever. They do not try and improve and they do NOT respect any other players. The conversation that follows every hand tells me this and it is amazing to listen and follow these discussions. I just sit and listen to all of the advice and information being spouted about and it is mostly just plain bad discussion with wrong information and illogical reasoning. Yet everyone swears they are right!!! I have yet to hear one of them admit that it is even possible for someone else’s opinion to have a chance of being correct!! Each and every one of them knows they are correct yet they all disagree most of the time. It truly is fascinating.
For the most part, I refuse to discuss hands or strategy at the table. I do not feel it accomplishes anything productive. However, I must confess that I do like hearing the discussions I have been hearing. They tell me that some of these core players in my games think they are better than they are and that do not have any area of their game on which to improve. No matter how good anyone is at anything, I believe one must always work to improve and that there is, without a doubt, always room for improvement. Players who believe they are better than they are have the losing attitude as far as I am concerned. This type of attitude is what I feel will be the eventual undoing of some otherwise “better than average but over-aggressive bordering on maniacal players”.
Comments welcome.
Just some thoughts…
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
These past number of sits have been particular interesting for me. Over the last few weeks, I have played in my usual poker games and have been reflecting on the different sittings. I have not had spectacular results by any stretch of the imagination. I am playing my usual game with usual results. What I do find interesting though is a trend of the regular core of players I play with and how aggressive they are.
I had a discussion on the ride home with a poker friend of mine (whom I owe a Fairbanks Steak dinner) regarding the different players (regulars) in the games in which we all play. The one thing we did not discuss which I thought about today was the over-aggressive play many of these players posses. Tendencies include pushing over cards all the way to the river, continually check-raise bluffing the turn (but rarely the river), pre-flop raising with any 2 cards (94 off comes to mind) when in late position with no one else in, Pushing an under pair with 4 over cards on board, etc. etc. etc. Much of our discussion last night focused on hand reading. He thinks it is an area he needs to work on. It is an area I constantly try to work on. After realizing how aggressive the games in our area are, I believe it to be extremely important.
There is a core of 5-10 players who will cold call raises and play as many hands as possible. Players playing a lot of hands are more difficult to put on a hand. However, I believe it is still possible if one is able to understand why they play so many hands. I believe I have discovered the reason why some of the regulars in our game play so many hands. They all think they can outplay each other every hand!! They all are very aggressive after the flop, they have decent to good hand reading abilities, and they play well after the flop with or without position. I understand and agree with the concept of true experts playing a few more hands. I think that all of these players truly believe they are experts/great players as they always try to outplay their opponent every hand no matter what the board and what they hold. Trying to outplay your opponent every hand is obviously the correct strategy. However, when a player plays 8 hands in a row for a raise, I would argue that it is impossible to outplay your opponents enough to take down all 8 pots. I have witnessed this mad shootout now for weeks and am fascinated by it.
Lets look at this concept a little further. Is it possible to outplay your opponent every hand? I would argue that it is. There is no doubt a correct play to outplay your opponent each and every hand. I will point to the Theory of Poker for this. I am also not asking if this is profitable as we all know it is because folding and saving money is to be considered outplaying your opponent since saving money is the same as making money. What I am asking, is it possible to WIN enough of these pots to make it MORE profitable than correct hold-em play following an expert strategy.
I would argue that it is not. By their play, these opponents are telling me they believe otherwise.
If asked, each of these players will tell you they are big winners in the game. I find it difficult to understand how a player can play 70% and more of hands they are dealt and still be a winner. I am not a statistical genius, but I am sure that I personally could not do this. My question is, can anyone? Is anyone good enough to play 2-3 times as many hands as the other players in the game and still be profitable? If so, would correct strategy be to always be over-aggressive while playing all of these hands?
I know of only one player I have ever played with who plays way too many hands and is still a big winner in the game. He is not over aggressive at all. He simply sees a lot of flops and then has an incredible ability to always know where he is and hardly ever gets trapped or pays off. He is the only player I have ever seen play this way and win. The majority of players I play with are the over aggressive type who play and push far too many hands and are not winners in the game. The true expert to whom I am referring usually tortures these over aggressive players. He catches them speeding all the time.
Many players love an action game with huge pots. While I play in this type of game very regularly, I am not sure it is my favorite or even most profitable. Personally, I like a few more passive opponents in the game. Continually playing with these super-aggressive opponents forces me to really play my A game. I find this to be good for my game, however, I am not sure if this type of game is the most profitable.
The games I have been playing in the last few months remind me of low-limit online games where everyone plays any 2 cards all the way no matter what the board or action. Reflecting back on hands turned over, I am truly amazed at the plays I see made. I cannot even fathom that they are correct, and know they will only lose money long term. I see these plays being made by players I once considered to be decent players; although I must confess, the recent patterns in a couple of players is really forcing me to rethink my position of respecting these players as good. At best, I am beginning to believe they are break even to small winners in the local games, but would get crucified if they were to travel and play.
By no means am I disrespecting this type of player. I would never do that because they have the ability to cost me more than anyone. Actually, just the opposite is true. I really respect them and try to avoid too many confrontations. The most beautiful thing is that none of them see ANY leaks in their games whatsoever. They do not try and improve and they do NOT respect any other players. The conversation that follows every hand tells me this and it is amazing to listen and follow these discussions. I just sit and listen to all of the advice and information being spouted about and it is mostly just plain bad discussion with wrong information and illogical reasoning. Yet everyone swears they are right!!! I have yet to hear one of them admit that it is even possible for someone else’s opinion to have a chance of being correct!! Each and every one of them knows they are correct yet they all disagree most of the time. It truly is fascinating.
For the most part, I refuse to discuss hands or strategy at the table. I do not feel it accomplishes anything productive. However, I must confess that I do like hearing the discussions I have been hearing. They tell me that some of these core players in my games think they are better than they are and that do not have any area of their game on which to improve. No matter how good anyone is at anything, I believe one must always work to improve and that there is, without a doubt, always room for improvement. Players who believe they are better than they are have the losing attitude as far as I am concerned. This type of attitude is what I feel will be the eventual undoing of some otherwise “better than average but over-aggressive bordering on maniacal players”.
Comments welcome.
Just some thoughts…
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)