The New Worst Play Ever, and it's spreading

[citanul]

So far I've seen this play about 5 times at the 10 sngs, a couple times at 30s, and once at a 200.

The situation is either when it is down to 4 players or 3.

One player is all in not covering or barely covering the blinds. At least 2 other players call. There is No Side Pot.

Flop comes w x y. Checked around, very common.

Turn comes z. One player bets, the other(s) fold, the better takes down the imaginary side pot and daydreams about how cool he is, and then shows his beautiful bluff of 9 high with no draws. The all in player then wins the pot, at least tripling up.

Have others been seeing this play? I'm assuming no one here has any possible reason to make this play. (Important info is that this is a bet that if called they have 0 chance of winning without improvement, hands that are really as bad as 8 or 9 high.)

citanul

[Abagadro]

I don't know that it is spreading, but I have seen it too. It's a lack of understanding about tournament dynamics and the concept of "protection" for the all-in. I'm not a huge fan of the rigid "check-around" when someone is all in, but doing it as a stone bluff with no cards and no side pot is indeed pretty stupid.

[PrayingMantis]

In certain situations, when it's done by a very big stack on the bubble or around it, it could be a good move. Bluffing into a dry pot could keep a small stack in the game, and let the big stack keep gaining chips during the (tight) bubble stage.

It's possible there are other situations when it's a correct move. For example: if you think that the all-in player is really terrible, it could make sense to try and keep him in - maybe later on he'll bust one of the better players. Also, this move could tilt some of your opponents - and that could mean some significant +EV... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But most of the times I see it done, it's pure stupidity.

[wayabvpar]

Heh- the last genius that did this in one of my games bluffed me out of the pot, tripled up the all in, and eventually got busted by the all in.

[Phil Van Sexton]

From Daniel Negreanu...
[ QUOTE ]
I can handle 900 consecutive one-outers just fine, but I completely lose my mind when I’m bluffed out of a dry side pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full Article: My Biggest Pet Peeve (http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/cparticles_archives.php?id=00053)

[carpola]

Negreanu said

[ QUOTE ]
I went broke soon thereafter, and the gentleman (he really is a gentleman, not a mean, cruel, ruthless man … but at the time, cruel and ruthless seemed more appropriate) who bet the turn now had more than $40,000 in chips. I couldn’t help but glare at those chips and think, ”Ah, what might have been.”


[/ QUOTE ]

Bluffing Negreanu out of a side pot, denying him chips, and putting him on tilt seems to have worked out to be solid poker strategy in this case!

[mackthefork]

There is only one reason for doing this, because you are thick as pig ****, someone just did it to me 2 hands running managed to get a guy from 150 back to 1200 in 2 hands good bubble performance.

They are just idiots (but forgive them, for they know not what they do).

Regards

Mack

[cartoonsoldier]

I beleive that in a torunament, It is good to check around all the way when the short stack is all-in, because if he wins, he triples up and there is one more person in the game you have to take care of.

[tolbiny]

"I beleive that in a torunament, It is good to check around all the way when the short stack is all-in, because if he wins, he triples up and there is one more person in the game you have to take care of."

This is only true if
1. there is no side pot to win.
2. your hand isnt good enough to value bet.

If there is a substantial side pot then it is fine to try to take it down with a bluff, even if it risks the letting the all-in remain in the tourney. When there is a large jump in payouts associated with the player busting then busting the player should be yoru priority, otherwise building your own stack should be tops on your list.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
If there is a substantial side pot then it is fine to try to take it down with a bluff, even if it risks the letting the all-in remain in the tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the guy who's spreading it!! Seriously though, I think the pot should be pretty substantial if you're going to bluff at it. But when the side pot has like 400 in it, this is completely infuriating. To me a bet, especially on the river, indicates "I have a hand that will take this guy down". I'll make that bet myself, but only if I think it's worth a bet because I can withstand a call, and can beat the all-in guy.

I guess that's pretty much in agreement with what others are saying, but I have run into this in the past week a few times.

What bothers me even more, is seeing a super tight short stack go all-in in the SB, and having the BB big stack call, with nothing, doubling the guy up. You can raise a short stack with any two cards, but you shouldn't CALL a raise with any two, right? OK, I'm rambling...sorry.

[Michael Davis]

9 high does not have a 0% chance of winning the hand.

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

Yes, you should be calling with any two here if he is not doubling the blind with his small all-in raise.

-Michael

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]

What bothers me even more, is seeing a super tight short stack go all-in in the SB, and having the BB big stack call, with nothing, doubling the guy up. You can raise a short stack with any two cards, but you shouldn't CALL a raise with any two, right? OK, I'm rambling...sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation all depends on stack size/blind size. If the sb is raising less than 2BB then you should call with any two cards, especially if you have a large stack and the loss wont sig hurt your chances of winning the tourney.

[citanul]

there's a synonym for donkey that correctly describes you and your post.

citanul

[gergery]

There is a good post by Greg Raymer that relates to this.

He basically says, “Sometimes bluffing the dry side pot can be a good idea, say in the following circumstance:

With 3 players, the chance to win
You: 15%
Allin guy: 55%
Other guy: 30%


After you bluff the side pot and get him to fold, chance to win:
You: 30%
Allin guy: 70%

You basically increase your own chance to win at the expense of the Other guy, with the Allin player a side beneficiary. Obviously, the increase in EV from making this play would need to outweigh the cost of potentially letting the all-in player stay alive.

But my point is, just bluffing a dry side pot by itself it not necessarily a bad play.

[citanul]

I don't think that I implied at all that the play I was so confounded by was people bluffing at a side pot with like, Ace high, or some other hand that may in fact beat the all in guy.

I'm seeing this play with 6 high. 9 high. T high was the best I've seen it with. In this case, it was like,

You 0-30%
Allin guy 70-100%
Other guy 0%

(I know that you very rarely can have a 0% likelihood, it was just an "example" to show what I mean, in the context of this other guy's post.)

bluffing at a dry side pot when there is some hope of winning is a completely different story.

also, a lot of these side pots are Completely Empty.

citanul

[Michael Davis]

That's really not a good response. Betting here is generally a good play if you have a large stack. You increase your chances of winning the pot unimproved and spiking a pair to beat whatever the all-in player might be holding. If you are in good chip position anyway, not making this play is terrible.

Your response was totally unprovoked and unjustified. I suspect you need to do more thinking about the game, perhaps rereading TPFAP. If you play SNGs in such an unthinking fashion with complete disregard for a seemingly yet terrible yet often correct play, you are leaving money on the table.

Best to you, don't bother to respond if you have more animal commentary.

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

I guess you really don't understand that T high is more likely to beat one hand than two.

-Michael

[Desdia72]

this type of thing happens all the time. a few days ago in a two table SNG with 5 players left i went all-in preflop with 1700 holding A J. the blinds were 100/200 with already one caller and 500 in the pot plus antes. the big stack, a maniac guy who was on a lucky streak with 11K, call me with 5 6 offsuit and caught a 5 on the river. if i would have won the pot, it would have put me in a good spot to place in the money but i was bounced out on the bubble. this happens a whole lot. in a two table SNG that i came in 2nd place today, big stacks were routinely calling short stack all-ins with crap hands and doubling or tripling up guys on their last leg. this is a very common practice in PS SNGs and MTTs. i see it all the time.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
In certain situations, when it's done by a very big stack on the bubble or around it, it could be a good move. Bluffing into a dry pot could keep a small stack in the game, and let the big stack keep gaining chips during the (tight) bubble stage.

It's possible there are other situations when it's a correct move. For example: if you think that the all-in player is really terrible, it could make sense to try and keep him in - maybe later on he'll bust one of the better players. Also, this move could tilt some of your opponents - and that could mean some significant +EV... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But most of the times I see it done, it's pure stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly...what you need to understand is that if the big stack has a significant amount more than anyone else, then he welcomes the short stack to stick around because it enables him to bully the medium stacks around.

For example, lets say its a typical party single table tourney. I'm in the SB with 7200 chips. BB has 1300. UTG has 1300. UTG+1 also has 100. Top 3 spots pay. Blinds are 200/400.

UTG folds and UTG+1 goes all in for 100 chips. I'll re raise all in even if I hold total trash from the SB in order to get the BB out because I want the shortstack to double up to 200 because it'll let me steal the blinds next hand if I lose and if I win, then oh well, I get even more chips anyway.

Although this example is extreme, I think you get the point. I do, however, agree that some morons will do it in situations that are not like the ones above and are totally wrong plays, which are very frusterating to those hoping to sneak into the money.

[BradleyT]

That's a very good TPFAP concept - was re-reading and came across that last night.

[mackthefork]

You are giving these people too much credit, in the bubble i'd rather let you have 1/4 of my chips than let the all-in survive, i'd specifically give action in order to eliminate players at this stage. You may think this is stupid but i don't.

Regards ML

[aces_full]

Since I'm a tournament newbie, I play $5 SNG's and it happens all the time there. Just happened to me last night. Four players left, I'm in 3rd with about 1600 chips, blinds are 100/200, and the BB has 600 chips left after posting. The chip leader is UTG and he calls 200. I'm on the button with AK offsuit. For some reason I decide to raise it up to 600. SB folds, BB moves all-in. UTG calls 800 more, I call 200.

The flop was all rags, and I wasn't happy. Half my stack is in and I hit nothing. Well, UTG moves me all in. I have nothing, and I feel I can't risk calling with another player already all in. I just have to fold and hope that UTG has a hand. Well after I'm out, they show. BB shows A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and UTG shows Q9!!!!!!! What an asswipe. BB ends up tripling up to 2400 with A high. Now I'm in 4th place and feeling pretty screwed. Thankfully I got a hot run of cards and was able to come back- and luckily the BB who just tripled up blew it a few hands later allwing me to slide into 3rd. I managed to win the tournament in spite of this messy AK hand.

[BettnTibetn]

ive had the hand that is all in at least 5 times where someone bluffs the other guy out on a draw and i hit the high card. Always very funny to see happen.

[Michael Davis]

It isn't stupid at all if you benefit from the other player getting eliminated. But there are situations where you are apathetic, and even others where, as some discussed elsewhere in this forum, you benefit from the player hanging around.

And, sometimes late in the tournament the all-in pot can be big enough that any increased chance of grabbing the chips in the middle is important for your chances of finishing 1st.

-Michael