My first conscious use of the stop and go.

[jedi]

I had 13x the BB on this hand. Villian was 2nd largest chip stack. I tried the stop-n-go here, but given the size of his pre-flop raise, I might have been better off pushing all in here, especially with the SB straggler. Or maybe I should have just folded and not gotten involved. Comments?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t8010)
CO <font color="purple">(Villian)</font> (t5835)
Button (t1012)
SB (t3245)
Jedi (t1300)
UTG (t1930)
UTG+1 (t2085)
MP1 (t3583)

Preflop: Jedi is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">CO <font color="purple">(Villian)</font> raises to t400</font>, Button folds, SB calls t350, Jedi calls t300.

Flop: (t1200) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Jedi bets t900 (All-In)</font>, Villian calls t900, SB folds.

Turn: (t3000) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in) </font>

River: (t3000) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in) </font>

Final Pot: t3000
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: t3000 (t3000), between Villian and Jedi.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Villian (t3000).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Jedi shows 7s 7c (two pair, jacks and sevens).
Villian shows Ad Kd (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: Villian wins t3000. </font>

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
I had 13x the BB on this hand. Villian was 2nd largest chip stack. I tried the stop-n-go here, but given the size of his pre-flop raise, I might have been better off pushing all in here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why? You think there's a chance in hell he would have folded preflop? No way.

If he calls your all-in, it's the same as racing preflop. Right?

eastbay

[RobGW]

Good idea, bad timing. The stop and go in this situation is not a bad idea, but once the flop comes down 9, t, J, i would take a second to rethink things. That flop would be kind to a lot of pre flop raises which would cut down your odds of winning without a showdown not to mention it has 3 overcards to your pair. Sometimes the best laid plans have to be scrapped.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Good idea, bad timing. The stop and go in this situation is not a bad idea, but once the flop comes down 9, t, J, i would take a second to rethink things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it's not a stop-n-go. And don't forget that flops which are scary to you are likely to be just as scary to your opponent.

eastbay

[Jason Strasser]

Great job. I like the play. Its not a stop and go if you examine the flop. There is no way you can call and check/fold. He made a loose call, and got lucky. Nice work.

[jedi]

So does anyone fold in this spot? I'm not pot committed, I still have 13xBB. I can live to fight another day, though there IS another SnG right around the corner.

My feeling at the time was that I was 2nd short stack. I needed to make a move, and I hadn't ever tried this before. Doesn't take any skill to try the stop-n-go, but I could be wrong and maybe I should have just folded.

[Stoneii]

He made a stack call and got lucky imo.

stoneii

[ZeeJustin]

Betting into a preflop raisor does not count as a stop N go.

[TheGrifter]

Zee - re-read the post.

[TheGrifter]

I disagree that it is not a stop'n'go if you examine the flop.

Whenever I use the stop and go it is almost always conditional, if I have big cards (but not ace) I will only push if an ace doesn't flop. If I have a pair I only push if less than 3 overcards flop (generally).

It's still a stop'n'go, just with an abort button. Of course sometimes I will also push on any flop, but if my stack is so short that that becomes necessary then I probably don't have the chips to get anyone off a hand anyway and will just throw them in preflop.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree that it is not a stop'n'go if you examine the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your play might be called a stop'n'look. Or a stop'n'maybe. But it obviously is not a stop'n'go.

Actually I would name it something more mundane: a call. How is this any different than a normal call, if you plan to play the flop according to how it falls?

eastbay

[TheGrifter]

It's a stop'n'go with an abort button. It's still a stop n go, 90% of the time I push. But if the flop is extremely disadvantageous, then I abort. One should never abandon reason when playing.

[Phil Van Sexton]

I don't think I like this play here. Once the SB calls, the stop-and-go is no longer a good idea.

I say this for 2 reasons...

1. With 2 opponents, you now have to get 2 medium/big stacks to fold on the flop for your play to work. It is less likely that the flop will miss both and more likely that 1 of them has an overpair already.

2. With the SB calling, the pot is now 1200. Since you only have 900 left, your all-in is giving more than 2:1 odds for someone to call. Given these odds, he was correct to call with AK, even though his chance of outdrawing your 77 was only 40%. Even if the SB had folded, you are still giving him 2:1 on your allin.

I would fold in this spot. However, if you felt like he was on a total steal, you should move-in and hope to get either the villian or SB to fold before the flop. I just don't like 77 against 2 opponents.

Assuming I did call pre-flop, the flop almost couldn't be worse. If he had been raising with anything, I'd probably push given your now short stack. Otherwise, it's a check/fold.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I like this play here. Once the SB calls, the stop-and-go is no longer a good idea.

I say this for 2 reasons...

1. With 2 opponents, you now have to get 2 medium/big stacks to fold on the flop for your play to work. It is less likely that the flop will miss both and more likely that 1 of them has an overpair already.

2. With the SB calling, the pot is now 1200. Since you only have 900 left, your all-in is giving more than 2:1 odds for someone to call. Given these odds, he was correct to call with AK, even though his chance of outdrawing your 77 was only 40%. Even if the SB had folded, you are still giving him 2:1 on your allin.

I would fold in this spot. However, if you felt like he was on a total steal, you should move-in and hope to get either the villian or SB to fold before the flop. I just don't like 77 against 2 opponents.

Assuming I did call pre-flop, the flop almost couldn't be worse. If he had been raising with anything, I'd probably push given your now short stack. Otherwise, it's a check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. This is the sort of critiquing that I was looking for, and if you hadn't posted, I'd pose these questions, mainly about pot size and number of opponents.

I'll closing the action on the flop, so I know for sure what the pot size will be. A stop-n-go will make me bet 900 into a 1200 pot against 2 opponents, and that's assuming the small blind doesn't lead out in front of me. If he did, then my plans were shot from the beginning. I probably should have picked a better spot for this.

Incidentally, isn't this hand a great example of why AK does better getting all-in pre-flop? It needed to see a turn to win (and even then might not have against a made straight). If I had been the one holding the AK, and this flop hit, I'm sure I would have folded right then and there.

[Phil Van Sexton]

This isn't only true with AK. Every hand wins more often if you go all-in and see all 5 cards.

In Super/System, Brunson says that AK is his favorite hand. He prefers AK because you can get away from it more easily than AA or KK. If the flop misses his AK and someone raises, he can get away cheaply. With AA or KK, you often can't. Assuming this is true, a good player with a decent stack doesn't want to be all-in with AK because you lose this flexibility.

I guess I'm saying don't get carried away with AK. If you have a short stack, of course you want all your chips in with AK, but not necessarily if you have a big stack.

He didn't have to go all-in, and I think a lot of players would make that call. His stack is big, and your bet looks like an act of desparation. There's no way you push there if you made a straight (99% of players would check to the pre-flop raiser, then move all-in). Therefore, he's got to think you have a single pair (J,T,9) or draw. In this case, he certainly has the pot odds to call you with overcards and an inside straight draw.

You would prefer him to call since you are the clear favorite. This is a case where both players played the flop correctly.

[BradleyT]

It's a pussy call not a stop and go.

Stop and go = you push on flop REGARDLESS of what flops.

[TheGrifter]

Nope. I use the stop'n'go play. Sometimes I don't push on the flop. I'll use whatever method is most likely to succeed for my style of play. Any time you decide what you're going to do on a later street (in NL) before the card comes, you've made a mistake.

[ZeeJustin]

I think you guys have the wrong deffinition of a stop n go. You mostly see stop n go's in limit (although they certainly exist in NL as well.)

AKss, flop is Q57, 2 spades. You bet the flop, opponent raises, you call. Turn 2d. You check, opponend bets, you call. River, 9s. You bet.

The river bet in that hand is the "go" part of a stop n go.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good idea, bad timing. The stop and go in this situation is not a bad idea, but once the flop comes down 9, t, J, i would take a second to rethink things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it's not a stop-n-go. And don't forget that flops which are scary to you are likely to be just as scary to your opponent.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

I am with you, but I wonder if this hand might be the rare exception. This flop hits virtually EVERY hand.

On the other hand, if he had the other two 7's in his hand, this would be your only winning play, and a pretty impressive one at that.

[Prickly Pete]

Zee, I think the Stop n Go being tossed around here is the Fossilman version. Where basically, you call a raise preflop (generally in the blinds), with the intention of betting allin on any flop.

For example, AQ raises your 100 BB to 300. You call with 88. Flop is J93 and you go allin. Basically, you give the preflop raiser a chance to fold before he catches a A or Q on the turn or river.

I still think, for most SNG situations where a Stop n Go play is being considered, just reraising allin is probably better. The added possibility of having him fold preflop can be huge.

[BradleyT]

I thought that was called weak-tight.

[ggano]

If that's the definition of stop-n-go then the stop-n-go is stupid, and not worth discussing. So that definition isn't very useful. What's wrong with defining stop-n-go as, the intent preflop is to push on the flop, and most of the time that's what you do. But, after you see the flop and you think the push is unlikely to work, it's perfectly fine to say, well that didn't work and give up.

[huge]

well, you guys all outrank me, but I have to say I come down on the side of "it IS a Stop n Go", if it's your intention to push on the flop except for rare cases.

Is anyone really going to go ahead and push on the flop if they make a full house or quads on the flop? I suspect most of us would change gears then and allow the opponent to bet, or allow the opponent a chance to make a flush or a straight, or allow the opponent to think we're weak because we bet the turn instead of the flop etc etc etc. In that situation we don't push because we *DON'T* want a fold.

Likewise on a flop that, for whatever reason, seems particularly likely to have hit our particular opponent, it seems like a good idea to hit the abort button. As has been pointed out, you can't just hit the abort button because the flop looks "scary" ... it's going to look scary to the other guy too, that's why Stop n Go works sometimes. But if I have a read on my opponent and I have good reason to think the flop is likely to have hit him, I'm gonna say "oops" and abandon ship.

I think this is still a Stop n Go. It's not just a call where I see if the flop has hit *ME* ... it's a call with the intention of pushing unless the flop (A) hits me in the head with a sledge hammer or (B) VERY likely hit my opponent.

Obviously this is just a semantic argument. I can define it one way and you can define it another. But I think that the stopNgo that I'm talking about is closer to the purists' version than it is to "call for value and see if I hit the flop", so for my money it makes sense to define it as such.

I've been thinking about Stop n Go a lot lately and trying to add it to my toolkit. I'm glad it's being discussed. It seems to me that a more interesting question is WHEN do you hit the abort button (OK I'll add "if ever" for the purists). I certainly agree that if you're aborting 50% of the time you're missing the point of the Stop n Go.

-Huge

[patrick dicaprio]

commendable as it might be to try to use the play I dont think you can just blindly make it on this flop. firstly there is teh SB to deal with. This alone when coupled with the flop means that you probably should abandon the play in your mind before the flop. once he calls there arethree players and before you see any flop cards you know that a push in will not likley win the pot if the flop is a good one. which is what happened.

secondly your opponent is a large stack. so you also know that if you push in with 900 on the flop you are offering him 21-9 to call. with this flop even if he has a draw or two overcards to the flop he is correct to call given that he can knock you out if he is right. plus he may have a hand that is better than that.

Pat

[ddubois]

I'm bumping this thread, because I wanted 1) to add stop'n'go to my arsenal, 2) to learn when to use it, 3) to see if anyone has settled on a definition of it, and 4) to recognize when it might be being used against me.

I think I tried to use a stop'n'go this weekend, but really, I had no idea what I was hoping to accomplish. So, exactly when am I supposed to use a stop'n'go? I'm having trouble seeing how stop'n'go wouldn't "stink like an obvious bluff"? And how you wouldn't only get called when you are massively behind. Anyone know of any reading materials on the play? URLs / books?

[poboys]

[ QUOTE ]
I am with you, but I wonder if this hand might be the rare exception. This flop hits virtually EVERY hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I read this, I assumed that the SnG was going to fail because the flop hit the SB not the PF raiser.

SB puts T250 in the pot. What the hell did he have? Maybe a small PP. Interresting...

[shejk]

"You would prefer him to call since you are the clear favorite. This is a case where both players played the flop correctly."

I would not if I was in the tourny. My nerves would love to see him fold, and so would my bankroll. Of course in a nl cashgame I would agree with you.

[kurtcobain]

anyone else think jedi should have just folded preflop, instead of risking 1/4 his stack with a coinflip at best?

[hhboy77]

once the sb called the raise, it became a clear fold in my book. however, had the sb called the stop 'n go would be a totally legitimate option.

for instance, if the people to jedi's left were not easy to steal blinds from. this may be his only chance to make some chips and survive to the money. many people have advocated that jedi simply fold and it may have been the best move. however, since we weren't playing the tourney, we don't know.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone else think jedi should have just folded preflop, instead of risking 1/4 his stack with a coinflip at best?

[/ QUOTE ]

yup, with 8 people left and blinds=50, i fold in a heart beat with 77. why fight him now over 50 chips? stay tight and wait for better cards to start a fight if you're not shortstacked.

in low limt sng's at party, they will try to steal blinds, but they will also go over the top with AA. i would call a 2bb raise with 77, but not much more. and certainly not call a 6bb.

[renolite]

Results in white below: WHERE??? I don't see the hand results - but really don't need to - with that flop, how could you call the raise??? It doesn't take much there to kill your hand - bad call.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Results in white below: WHERE??? I don't see the hand results - but really don't need to - with that flop, how could you call the raise??? It doesn't take much there to kill your hand - bad call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you highlight the space below you should see it.

Second, this was NOT just a call. It was a call with the intention of pushing in on any flop, hence the Stop and Go. The intent was to push someone off a hand with an all-in bet on the flop. If I wasn't planning on pushing, I wouldn't have called in the first place.

I do agree that once the small blind called I should have just folded though.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone else think jedi should have just folded preflop, instead of risking 1/4 his stack with a coinflip at best?

[/ QUOTE ]

yup, with 8 people left and blinds=50, i fold in a heart beat with 77. why fight him now over 50 chips? stay tight and wait for better cards to start a fight if you're not shortstacked.

in low limt sng's at party, they will try to steal blinds, but they will also go over the top with AA. i would call a 2bb raise with 77, but not much more. and certainly not call a 6bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Big Blind was 100 in this case, so I only had 13x BB. I think I should not have tried this move once the small blind called the raise because that left 1200 in the pot, and me with a 900 stack should I try the stop and go.

Had small blind folded, the pot would be 850 instead, and the 900 in chips would be a pot sized raise. Would you have called there with AK onto a coordinated board?

Plus, I was not risking 1/4 of my stack, I was risking my whole stack in this case. I knew what I was going to do on the flop and that's push all in. Luckly for me the flop missed my opponent completely. Unluckly for me, the turn hit him hard.