Playing a really really loose 2/4 game...

[PITTM]

whenever i go to my local cardroom i hit the 2/4 game because its all i can afford. the game is ridiculously loose and fairly passive, the first person will bet and everyone will call. i think that i have been too selective on what hands to play as they are almost always busted by one of the other 10 staying in. should i just play a lot more hands and try to outplay them postflop or something? im confused because it seems like no matter what it is just a crapshoot.

rj

[jdl22]

Play hands that like multiway pots. These include Axs, Kxs, and suited connectors. Pocket pairs also are good for set value and the value of aces goes up in these games as well. Play fewer unsuited broadway cards.

In these games you tend to need a better hand than usual to win.

[haakee]

Lee Jones's book was written specifically with San Jose $3-6 games in mind. And those $3-6 games are very similar to the $2-4 games you're playing in. The things he advocates will have you doing pretty well in those games.

[sthief09]

suited connectors, suited gaps, and suited aces go up in value. if you can get in cheaply, pairs are great too. don't bluff or semi-bluff much, if at all. pump your draws for value since they are calling with anything, and value bet a lot

as for preflop raising, don't tend to raise your pairs or connectors as much because they would seem to be insensative to pot odds. you should be raising more hands for value preflop like ATs and possibly some worse hands since they will be limping in with all kinds of crap. this includes before and after limpers

[PITTM]

thanks! lee jones' book was actually on the way as i posted this. i had actually read the theory of poker and texas holdem for advanced players, THEAP seemed like it was exactly the opposite of what i should be reading though, since all of the players at those tables would never think about betting for value or any of those concepts. do you play at bay 101 man? thanks!

rj

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks! lee jones' book was actually on the way as i posted this. i had actually read the theory of poker and texas holdem for advanced players, THEAP seemed like it was exactly the opposite of what i should be reading though, since all of the players at those tables would never think about betting for value or any of those concepts. do you play at bay 101 man? thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

reading WLLH after HEFAP and TOP is stupid. I tried it and put the book down after 15 pages.

[DogFace]

I can definitely relate to your situation. What follows is an excessively long account of my recent poker background. It should be entertaining, but if you just want to get to the meat of the advice go ahead and scroll down a bit.

I really only started playing poker seriously near the tail end of 2003. I began to play cheap, local no limit hold 'em ring games when I could. Eventually I decided to go to the local casino where I would try my luck at 2/4 hold 'em. I was so used to playing no limit that when I played limit I found myself a big time loser. I lost all $80 that I sat down with and learned that leading out with JT is suicide in limit.

With my stinging casino defeat still lurking in my memory, I focused on no limit and continued to play tournaments. I rapidly improved as a player and cashed in a few live tourneys. By this point my knowledge of hold 'em in general was getting pretty good and I felt confident in my abilities to hold my own in limit or no limit.

Eventually I was introduced to a local 3/6 limit game. The play was generally tight and fairly solid. After two losing sessions I got my stuff together and soon found myself winning to the point where my hourly rate exceeded the BB. That's not extremely impressive, but winning is winning.

Now viewing myself as a winning limit player, I headed back to the casino in search of revenge. I sat down at the 2/4 table and began to play. I soon discovered that this game was not in the same ballpark as the 3/6 game I'd been playing. Virtually everyone at the table was playing a loose/weak style. They were limping in with hands they shouldn't have been playing and were chasing way too many pots with middle pair. I was licking my chops watching these fish show down Q7, but for the life of me I could not pick up a hand.

Soon I became frustrated and began to play tilted. I knowingly chased a nut flush draw when my EV was negative. I also tried to push around a guy when it was obvious he wasn't going to lay his hand down. In short, my play was bad and I was losing patience in a hurry.

After about an hour and a half I was down to $39 of my original $100, wondering how I could possibly lose at such a cake game. Soon enough the cards finally came. Before I knew it I was back over $50. Soon after that I was over $70 and then $80. After hitting trips with pocket jacks I found myself up for the first time that day with $104 on the table in front of me. After four hours of struggling I was finally up and I had settled into the game. But I was tired, hungry, and sick of the smokey casino environment. I quickly racked up my chips and got out of there.

I was disappointed to walk out with a measley $4 in profits, but I didn't want to stay for any longer than I already had. Anyhow, I'll get to the point. The majority of the people I was playing against were playing horribly. They would limp in with far too many hands and then proceed to give away their hands with their betting. In general it goes like this:

If they fold they have nothing.

If they check they have nothing or a pair with a bad kicker.

If they bet they have at least a pair.

If they re-raise they generally have a pretty big hand.

Fortunately for me, they also seemed perfectly content to call you down with marginal pairs. Because of this, you should play a loose 2/4 game as follows:

- Be very selective with what hands you play, but be sure to raise the pot when warranted. Do not let the other players draw at you for free with marginal hands, although you must expect them to call you with hands that they shouldn't. This may lead to some frustration, but it makes the game profitable in the long run.

- Do not play marginal hands because you will almost never be able to bluff anyone out of a pot.

- Do not play fancy for the sake of deception except for when you're trying to milk a pot with a monster hand. Weak casino players do not think. They do not think "Hey, that guy has not been playing many hands and he's raising. Maybe I should fold." They merely look down at their cards and decide whether they want to play. Therefore you should not worry about being predictable and boring. They will not notice.

Honestly, that's all it takes to win at a loose/weak 2/4 game (which is what you'll find in many casinos). I lost money for a while, but I was being dumb. I showed steady profits once I got my patience back and waited for hands. You may need to wait 30 minutes for a playable hand, but when you do hit your hands you will generally get paid off by at least one player. These games are frustrating because players will draw out on you with garbage, but in the end the loose/weak play makes these games very appealing from an EV standpoint.

With all that said, I found 2/4 at the casino to be a boring game. I wasn't having fun winning my money back from these people. I wasn't able to play poker. Instead I was simply forced to sit and wait for a big hand. This builds bad habits and allows for mental laziness. Nevertheless, if you have patience and you want to win then you can certainly do so at these games.

[PITTM]

yeah, i have been in this 2/4 game twice and the first time i had great cards and went from 60 to 180 in about 2 hours. The next time i got shelled, i got pocket aces my 2nd hand and raised and everyone called, the flop came all clubs( i had none) and there was a bet and 2 raised before me, so i folded and it turned out the winning hand was a pair of 9's, that got me confused and then i got horrid cards for the rest of the session and lost 60. I hope to go on thursday and play a long session to cut down on the variance of good cards/bad cards and try to play fairly tilt free and by the book. i just want to cut down the gambling and start winning and playing correctly in this situation. Thanks for the advice guys!

rj

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Soon I became frustrated and began to play tilted. I knowingly chased a nut flush draw when my EV was negative.


[/ QUOTE ]

Majorkong might have a fit here. How many people were in the pot with you? Were they calling all bets? Was the board paired? Was the board double-paired? Was there a ton of agression causing you to cold-call 2 or 3 bets? How do you know it was negative EV?

In loose-passive games, I'll be chasing and pumping flush draws all day long. When I lose, I lose several big bets. When I win, I'll have 3 or more people paying me off.

[DogFace]

I wasn't getting the proper odds to call.

[MicroBob]

how on earth is that possible??

you're chances of hitting a nut-flush draw should be worth staying in for most any situation.

unless the board was paired or tripped in which case you know that your flush-draw is not the nuts.


you made a couple of other comments in your post that seemed a bit odd to me as well....including the idea that 'you might have to wait up to 30 minutes for a playable hand'. well...at a B&M, this is about 15 hands....and you should NEVER be surprised to actually go 15 hands without anything worth playing.

you seem to advocate playing tighter at these limp-fests...when, in fact, it really is opening the door for MORE hands to be played...particularly in LP.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't getting the proper odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you are.

Without even doing the math, unless the board is double paired, you should be staying until the river on every nut flush draw, unless you have to call 4 bets cold on a paired board.

You have the odds. They might be implied odds, but you have the odds to call.

[bisonbison]

read the micro forum. .5/1 online is comparable to 2/4 and 3/6 live.

[bernie]

sometimes you're even making money for every bet going into the pot.

b

[bernie]

Microbob,

Among other things in his post, i agree with you. I also noticed the quick assumption on his game after only an $80 loss on a 2-4 game. Lots of results oriented thinking is seems that isnt even really justifiable given said results. Not that mistakes can't be seen, but not result-based.

It's always fun to go orbit after orbit after orbit without a playable hand. Only to finally see the flop, fold or get the hand snapped off, then repeat the process. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

b

[bernie]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, im sure it has, but ill say it anyways.

First things first. Realize what 'type' of starting hands play well in a game like this and 'why' they play that way. Once you get that, post flop is basically value betting and calling with odds.

2nd...Value bet. Even draws if getting enough callers. There's usually no bluffing/semi bluffing in these games.

3rd...Swings are , and can be quite a bit, bigger in these games than normal. Which is the nature of playing drawing hands in games like this.

cya

b