Would you have gotten involved/shut down?

[KHALI]

I am new to poker since Christmas but I am trying to get better by reading books and these posts. A situation I find myself in quite often is playing a middle pair and getting called all the way by a slightly better middle pair who never raises for afterwards obvious reasons. How do you decide when to stay at your opponent and when to shut down. See example below where I obviously went too far? What mistakes did I make? Should I even have gotten involved here?

> -----------------------------------------------------
> (Level V, Game #4) - 50/100 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
> Table "Culpepper" ($10 tournament) -- Seat 9 is the button
> Seat 2: khali (3,000.00 in chips)
> Seat 5: utg (1,890.00 in chips)
> Seat 7: utg+1 (1,740.00 in chips)
> Seat 9: button (1,610.00 in chips)
> Seat 10: smallblind (1,760.00 in chips)
> douglas.t: Post Small Blind (50)
> Khali127: Post Big Blind (100)
> Dealing...
> Dealt to Khali [ 8h ]
> Dealt to Khali[ Jc ]
> utg: Fold
> utg+1: Fold
> button: Call (100)
> smallblind: Fold
> Khali: Check
> *** FLOP *** : [ 3h 3s 8s ]
> Khali: Bet (240)
> button: Call (240)
> *** TURN *** : [ 3h 3s 8s ] [ 7h ]
> Khali: Bet (400)
> button: Call (400)
> *** RIVER *** : [ 3h 3s 8s 7h ] [ Qh ]
> Khali: Bet (400)
> button: Call (400)
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Pot: 2,330 | Board: [ 3h 3s 8s 7h Qh ]
> Khali lost 1,140 (showed hand) [ 8h Jc ] (two pair, eights and
threes)
> button bet 1,140, collected 2,330, net +1,190 (showed hand) [ 9d 9h ]
(two pair, nines and threes)

Any input is appreciated as this has happened almost exactly the same on numerous occasion(10's versus J's, J's versus Q's etc).

[La Brujita]

Welcome to the forum. For what its worth I play it like this, bet about 150-200 on the flop, bet about 80% of the pot on the turn and check the river.

I think the only/main reason to bet the river is to protect yourself from a bluff by your opponent on the river. It is very hard to know if your hand is good.

Without knowing how your opponent played it is very hard to know where you are at but I must say these situations completely mystify me. One thing I really struggle with on the internet is all the flat calls you see. I am not complaining, these "mistakes" help you but they make the game very difficult to read because your opponent is never defining his hand. If anyone has any answers on playing the flat caller I would love to hear it but I think I know the answer, you just need to play solid poker and make reasoned guesses when your opponent's play puts him on a reasonable range of hands.

Looking at the flop in question a flat call to me indicates either a flush draw, overcards or a middle pair. I guess the question is why wouldn't a middle pair raise to make the flush draw expensive. He could also have a boat or trip threes but that is unlikely since you have one of the eights and a three is less likely out of the blinds. You also have to ask yourself why he smooth called from the button which is either the mark of a weak player or indicates a monster holding like AA. Not sure exactly what the flat call on the turn means. Is he slowplaying a monster? Calling with his flush draw? Hard to say. I edited this response to just add a quick thought process you might have when playing a hand.

Regards

[Phil Van Sexton]

Since he just called pre-flop and just called on the flop, I'm guessing he's a pretty passive player.

I have to think that he's either on a flush draw or already has you beat (K8, A3, 99), though it's possible he has a small pair.

Your flop bet doesn't tell you much about what he has. Maybe a larger bet on the flop would make it obvious that you are behind here.

Given that he called the flop, he'll likely call the turn unless you move all-in (and that hardly seems like a good idea). Since you are pretty sure he will call on the turn, you are really value betting your J8. I don't like that play in a tourny against a passive player. If your bet isn't going to get him to fold, I like to be more certain that I have the best hand and not being trapped by A3 or called down with K8.

Therefore, I'm done with this hand after the flop. He seems like a passive player thats unlikely to bluff at this, but if he does, more power to him...I need better than J8 to risk a lot of chips here.

[MaqEvil]

I would bet more on the turn and check on the river. You can't assume that you are beat after he calls the flop. In a $10 tournament, he could have as little as overcards. I see people call pot sized bets on rag flops and fold on the turn all the time.