Can you lay down the kings preflop?

[mackthefork]

Please note this is not a bad beat story, but a story of a foolhardy hero who went against his instincts in the bubble.

5 left in a stars 18 seater only $5+50c blinds are 200/400

seat 1 Mr A has around 5,500
seat 2 Mr B has around 5,100
seat 3 Mr C has around 7,500
seat 4 Hero has around 5,700
seat 5 Mr D has around 3,200

Hero is in the big blind and looking at KK (which is nice)
Mr D calls 400
Mr A min raises to 800

Now at this point I started thinking, this guy had been at the table with me for about 40-50 hands and had not min raised once, I felt certain he had AA.....can you throw the kings out preflop, can you really call with kings.

Anyways

Mr B and Mr C both fold and the action is back on me, I raised all in like a fool, Mr D and Mr A both call

Mr A shows AA
Mr D shows K7

no help comes for anyone, and I'm down to 170 but luckily get into 4th spot because Mr D is even dafter than me.

Question can you lay them down or not, I'm not joking I gave it my very best consideration, calling is stupid, reraising is gonna get your opponent to push, then you are back to the first dilemma again, fold seems like the only rational option. I was just not ready to do it.

Anyone see this differently. Any comments appreciated.

Regards Mack

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

this guy had been at the table with me for about 40-50 hands and had not min raised once, I felt certain he had AA..

Not to sound harsh, but - why bother making a read if you don't trust it once you make it? We've all done the same thing. On the bubble, trust your gut.

[mackthefork]

I fully agree and acknowledge the fact that i played very badly, but i got lucky as the other guy called with his K7 and i crept into 4th. I might be able to put them down next time but it feels somehow wrong when your finger is hovering over the fold button.

Regards ML

[BettnTibetn]

you cant fold them to the first raise that would be insane...but you dont have to push all in on your first bet...raise it to 2,000 and see what the guy does. If he re raises all in then you may have a chance to fold it. But still almost impossible to fold KK preflop ive done it only once

[mackthefork]

So what do i do if he just calls the reraise, i'm in an awful situation after the flop if no ace or king drops what would my action be in first position.

[razor]

If you are reasonably certain Mr D won't re-raise... why not just call the 400 hoping to flop a K and take Mr A's stack. If you miss the flop just fold.

Bash Away

[37offsuit]

I agree. I'd pay the extra T400 to see the flop, but I would trust my read here. What are you hoping for with your reraise all in? That AA will fold or that your read was wrong?

[steeser]

I think folding here or calling are both pretty terrible here. I make a modest raise (basically the same raise I always would) to about 2K. If he re-raises all-in you can probably verify your read and fold. But I don't think that you can fold this based on 40-50 hands of play.

[HajiShirazu]

I don't think it could ever be right to fold KK preflop in a 5+.50 SNG.

[ismisus]

I think the best move is to call. If you think you're beat, but can't lay it down, why not just call the modest raise instead of putting all your chips in. If an ace comes out on the flop, you can easily fold. If it doesn't, then you call on the flop too, since he won't bet a lot of chips. You can just call him down to the river, and there you can find out whether he has AA or not. This way there's a possibility that you'll have chips remaining instead of putting all your chips in the beginning.

[carpola]

Not in a $5 sit-n-go I wouldn't. The fact that someone could call with K7 gives you enough reason to stick with your Kings. I'd say the reraise makes you sure they have a PP but were you really sure they were aces this late in the sit-n-go? I'd take my chances with Kings every time unless your absolutey positive about the aces

[Beavis68]

I have only done this once, there was one maniac going all-in all the time, I finally get KK, a there he goes all-in, and one player calls, I thought the other player had AA, so I folded, the flop was K-high and they both had crap hands. This maniac went on to take me out 4th.

But, you have a good stack, if you really feel that the guy has AA, fold is you can live with yourself when you find out he had AK or AQss. I don't see how you can get away from this if you just call, if you are convinced it is AA dump it, but I never could, not in a sit n go.

[Syntax]

Playing with a guy for 40-50 hands, there is absolutely no way you could make a confident enough read to put someone on Aces. I think your "read" was just a simple manifestation of fear because you had the kings and this other player raised. With a tourney down to 5 players and blinds going up, this guy could be adjusting to that or anything else. You can't fold this hand here, but you shouldnt have to go broke on it either.

When you raised all in, and that limper called with K7, I'll guarantee you that he thought you were on a steal. There is no way you fear his hand, after he just called the opening raise. You would like to get heads up with him or at least take the pot right there, but youre still a little worried about the raiser.

What I would have done was make it 3200 to go, this is another 2400 raise wich is about 2x the pot, this sets the limper all-in if he calls.

If he does, then if you get re-raised by the original raiser, you can go with your gut read and lay down the hand. Theres only a few hands that he is gonna put 4k more into pot with another player all-in on the bubble.

If he folds great, if he just calls, then he doesnt have the aces, and you can move in on the flop (as long as an ace doesnt hit, then you have a tough decision)

If you raise, and the limper folds and you get reraised all in and fold, you will have about the same size stack as the limper, so youre still in good shape to make the money.

[TheGrifter]

At the very least you have to call here for set value. Who knows, maybe he won't push that hard after the flop...but I don't like a fold here at all.