(Long) Giving a 3BB gift - river question

6-12. I've been at the table for about 30 minutes and there doesn't seem to be any consistent texture to the table.


KdTd UTG. I know the two players to my left well. If they have a playable hand, they will 3-bet to try and isolate if I raise here, so I just limp in. As expected, they and others do as well. Someone in late position raises. I call, knowing it will be called around. 7 see the flop for 2SB each.


Flop: Ah,Qd,Jd. Uh, not bad. I bet out, knowing that most people will put me on either Ace or pair and draw if I do that. A couple of callers. LP (pre-flop raiser I've only seen in one hand so far) raises. Button calls. Blinds fold. I and the two others call. Anyone 3-bet here? 5 in for 2SB each.


Turn: 3c,Ah,Qd,Jd. I bet again, hoping to stick the two callers to this pot. If I don't bet, it will be checked to LP and these guys will likely fold to my raise. If they have two pair or a set, they're not going anywhere, so I think I just have to build the pot with my monster hand and draw. They call and LP raises as expected. Button folds. I 3-bet and both of the callers fold. Here's where it gets interesting.


LP 4-bets. I really didn't put him on KT as well. Set of Aces maybe? In any case, I 5-bet. He 6-bets. OK, same hand. Except I have a monster draw. At 11 bets, my opponent has 5BB left.


Now I am forced to make a bigger picture decision. This table is looking very good. I was right - I ended up making 50BB in 4 hours. I notice two fish are getting bored and talking about going for a smoke. With another guy at dinner, this may break this table, so I just call (knowing they'll stick around to see - and knowing I can probably get one or two of his last 5BB at the river if my diamond comes through).


River: 8c,3c,Ah,Qd,Jd. I bet, just to make sure. He raises, so I just call, turn over and start to pull my bet back for the chop. AND HE TURNS OVER AsJs. Holy cow! Who else makes the dumb assumption I did?

I could see this happening at a 2-4 table, but I'm rather pleased to see happens at 6-12 as well.

Unless you are certain that it will break the game, you must raise with the nuts until your opponent stops.


On the turn, you have the open-ended SF draw. If he is playing KT, he may quit raising if you hit you flush. With the nuts, never stop.


Doug

I agree. Do you know anything about playing poker? Anyone who doesnt keep on raising when they have the nuts is an idiot. If you are worrying about the game breaking, dont, there will always be another one.

[Unless you are certain that it will break the game, you must raise with the nuts until your opponent stops.


On the turn, you have the open-ended SF draw. If he is playing KT, he may quit raising if you hit you flush. With the nuts, never stop.]


Doug,


Of course I agree and of course I was salivating over having the nuts with that draw on the flop and turn. In my defense, though, it took FOREVER to go the 11 bets. Every time I raised, this guy went through this elaborate Hollywood act that was pissing off everyone at the table. I really do think that 3 more rounds of that might have resulted in the table breaking. Someone actually asked the dealer at 8 bets if we could just push all-in, but the dealer said no. Right or wrong, I made a decision here and don't think there's much to discuss.


My real question is on the river. We've just gone 11 bets on the turn. Now I bet out and get raised on the river. I definitely should have re-raised at least once, but ignoring the fact that he only has 5BB left, how many times do you go back and forth on the river? I mean, after 13 bets, I was 100% certain we were chopping. I was just wrong.

Alec,


There was a good post a few weeks ago from the PokerBabe about a similar hand that she witnessed. In a good discussion, the thread argued the pros of being polite to the table in an obviously split pot vs. the benefits of the 1/1000 chance that your opponent was horribly misplaying his hand. The general consensus in that thread was that you should raise as long as you have chips.


I think a good game is something to be treasured, and I might be willing to sacrifice a tiny bit of EV to keep one together. In this instance, I think raising until your opponent stops is a good idea. Calling him an idiot goes a bit beyond the mark, don't you think?


Doug

I would have played the hand as you did. You had absolutely no fear in this hand. The only thing that could have crushed you was a paired board, so that river card was delicious for you. You only lost 1 BB in this hand, and I think you played it perfectly. Please send the guy who went crazy with his AJ to my casino.

if i have the nuts on the turn or river, im betting as much as possible. i never assume that it will be split. even if i know it will, ill keep raising and let him be the one to back off.


i watched a guy the other night get raised on the turn. i knew he had the nut str8, but he only called. there was a flush draw on the board and it was 5 way....


the flush didnt come. how much do you think he gave up on that hand? you cant charge the flush draws after they miss the river...

i just shook my head...


i also watched a guy check and call on the turn when he had the nut str8 with the nut flush draw with 3 opponents against him, and the bet was from his left...what the hell?


in these 2 situations, it tells me, this guy isnt going to charge me, or test me...


when the nuts arent good enough to raise with in these spots, what is? if this was no limit, wouldnt you be all in?


the 2 examples i stated arent exactly your situation, but there are correlations...


bet and raise, make em pay!


its a great feeling when you both had the str8 on the turn but you rivered the flush and charged him the max you could on the turn. to him it feels like a shot to the solar plexis.


b

Yeah, I don't understand you just calling? If he is going to give you action, LET him! Make it a raising war...you have the nuts!!


You lost a good amount of money on this hand.


Monster flop though...nice win.

Ulysses,


I think your consideration of the time it was taking for the playing to go through his elaborate betting ritual is laudable, but in this case, where you have the nuts plus redraw, you must continue to raise. (I am talking about only the turn here.) It would be different if you obviously had the same hand and were splitting the pot, or if he was the one that could possibly be freerolling.


Mike