Preflop situation...Raise or Call.

[FletchJr.]

Your in a fairly loose low limit game.
YOu have AQo and are in the middle of the pack, 4 limpers limp to you. Do you raise and if so why or why not?
and how often do you raise?

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
Your in a fairly loose low limit game.
YOu have AQo and are in the middle of the pack, 4 limpers limp to you. Do you raise

[/ QUOTE ] yes.

[ QUOTE ]
and if so why or why not?

[/ QUOTE ] because you have the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
and how often do you raise?

[/ QUOTE ] every time.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you raise

[/ QUOTE ]

yup

[ QUOTE ]
why

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you typically limp with hands stronger than AQo?

[ QUOTE ]
and how often do you raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

100%. Sometimes I try to raise twice and the dealer throws chips back at me.

[FletchJr.]

your response is...... simple,useless.
Please expand your reasoning besides "because you have the best hand."

Let's talk about the effects raising will do.
1. more money in the pot.
-is htis a good idea or bad? you may have the best hand, but raising my actually give your opponent correct odds for long shot draws.
- Like you say, you should punish opponents for calling wish Shiat hands. you should make them pay 2 bets for playing those POS hands.
2. define some hands behind you (they're cold calling hands which generally means something)
- If anything it will announce to the players that you have a strong holding, so if they come out firing at you on the flop they're telling you they're not afraid

3. Knocking people out behind you.
-even though the pot already has 4 opponents in it, raising may cut down the number of players to enter the pot. Again, Is this a good or bad?

[BugsBunny]

[ QUOTE ]
your response is...... simple,useless.
Please expand your reasoning besides "because you have the best hand."

Let's talk about the effects raising will do.
1. more money in the pot.
-is this a good idea or bad? you may have the best hand, but raising my actually give your opponent correct odds for long shot draws.
- Like you say, you should punish opponents for calling wish Shiat hands. you should make them pay 2 bets for playing those POS hands.
2. define some hands behind you (they're cold calling hands which generally means something)
- If anything it will announce to the players that you have a strong holding, so if they come out firing at you on the flop they're telling you they're not afraid

3. Knocking people out behind you.
-even though the pot already has 4 opponents in it, raising may cut down the number of players to enter the pot. Again, Is this a good or bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Good idea. You win far more than your fair share. Manipulating pot size is less important at this point then other factors. If you were on the BT, or in one of the blinds, then not raising may have value (but it still depends).

2) ?? If people cold-call behind me that's usually good. I'd be more concerned if they're re-raising me. I can't tell anything about the hands behind me yet since they have yet to act. If I'm always going to worry about hands behind me then I better not raise unless I have AA - and even then I shouldn't raise because I'll be giving away my hand. Out of an MP position with all those limpers in front of me I'll be raising with a pretty large variety of hands, for a number of different reasons (depending on the hand).

You also say nothing about the limits involved or the caliber of players, both those in the pot and those left to act. This can modify things to some extent (but not really with AQ).

As far as them firing at me on the flop - since I would raise with a wide variety of hands in this situation they really don't know much about my yhand. How I react to them on the flop is, as in most other cases, very dependent on what the flop is, do I have opponents left to act, how good are they etc. Just because I raised preflop doesn't mean that I have to bet the flop, or even stick around post flop.

3) Knocking opponents out in this situation is definitely a good thing. If you need to ask why - well - come play at my table and I'll show you why /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
but raising my actually give your opponent correct odds for long shot draws.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this statement.

Yes, raising will make the pot bigger, but if your opponent flops some sort of draw (which won't happen very often), he'll now pay 1.5 BB (or more) to complete it something like 10% of the time (a gutshot draw, for example). What happens the other 90% of the time? He throws away 1.5BB chasing. I like those odds.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
-is htis a good idea or bad? you may have the best hand, but raising my actually give your opponent correct odds for long shot draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? By this logic you should never raise pf after limpers.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
your response is...... simple,useless.
Please expand your reasoning besides "because you have the best hand."



[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. I raise because I want to make money playing poker, and the best way to make money playing poker is to raise when you have the best hand.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

your response is...... simple,useless.
Please expand your reasoning besides "because you have the best hand."


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok. I raise because I want to make money playing poker, and the best way to make money playing poker is to raise when you have the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Would you raise 44 after a few limpers if it figures to be the best hand (and it does)?

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
Your in a fairly loose low limit game.
YOu have AQo and are in the middle of the pack, 4 limpers limp to you. Do you raise and if so why or why not?
and how often do you raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this question.

The arguments for raising AQ here are pretty obvious and straightforward. You are certainly welcome to argue for limping here but it would be your responsibility to produce some arguments to support that strategy not vice versa.

Arguments for raising that you already know:

Raising puts more money in the pot when you have a hand that is likely to win.

Raising can cause people to fold which increases your chances to win.

Therefore, bigger chance to win a bigger pot.

Raising can also give you control over how a hand plays out, giving you options you don't otherwise have: Hey, let's check to the raiser, see what he does and then react to it! GREAT PLAN! Hey, he checked through, he must have missed with AK. Oh wait, he just raised, he must have a big pair. Hmm... what could he have?? Let's see... what do I have? I DON'T KNOW, I FORGOT.

But you know all this already.

I raise with AQ here pretty much everytime.

/mc

[umdpoker]

right now your relative position is great. what if 3 more people limp behind you? not so great anymore, right? i would raise this every time. i would want nobody behind me to call. however, 1 or 2 callers won't kill you. i think a lot of people miss out on the fact that raising preserves your power of position much better than limping.

[davidross]

I don't think it's as clear cut as everyone else seems to. I've raised this point before, and gotten the same response you got, but I'm still not convinced. I think you want to keep this pot small.

It's going to be 6 ways for sure, and if you flop top pair in a 6 way raised pot, everyone will have correct odds to call you. WHen they make correct calls, you lose. If you keep th epot small and hit, you might be able to raise the flop and get people to make incorrect calls.

I'm still undecided on this one,

[tech]

Check out pp. 175-176 in HEPFAP. The section is in the Loose Games chapter and the title of the section is "Playing AQ."

I won't repeat the entire argument, but basically it says don't raise AQo if you are going to be in a large multiway pot.

[rtrombone]

This is a bad way to approach the question.

1800GAMBLER had a post a little while ago that got me thinking that the Fundamental Theorem shouldn't be the basis for how we make decisions at the table. Because in limit hold 'em these days, the pots are often so big that your opponents are correct to chase with practically any two cards. If their calls are +EV due to the size of the pot, does this mean that betting is a mistake? Of course not.

The money that's in the pot is, by definition, dead money. There's nothing you can do about it. All you can control is the action on the current street. What really matters is pot equity. If you stand to win more than your fair share of the time (e.g., there are four of you and your hand will be good over 25% of the time), you make money on every bet that goes into the pot. It's that simple. This is why you can value bet/raise on the flop with a big draw in a multiway pot.

Another way to look at it: if you're always putting your money in when you're getting the best of it, you win. It's not necessary to have a made hand to be getting the best of it, depending on how many other players are involved in the pot.

Say you limp with your AQ and you flop TPTK. There are, oh, I don't know, six small bets in the pot. Some fish has flopped an inside straight draw. You bet, he and two other guys call. 4.5 big bets in the pot. The turn is a blank, you bet and all three call again. Now, when Mr. Inside Straight Draw calls on the turn he's getting 7.5-1 on an 11-1 shot. He's making a mistake according to the Fundamental Theorem. I mean, even if he gets two bets from you on the river, that's still 9.5-1. What if you'd raised preflop? Assuming it was still six to the flop, there would be 3 more big bets in there. Mr. Inside Straight Draw would be getting 10.5-1 on the turn. Allowing for river action, his call is correct according to the Fundamental Theorem.

Step back and look at the whole hand. Which course of action is more profitable for you? Assuming the same guys are trying to chase you down in each scenario, your hand will hold up the same percentage of the time. Only when you raise preflop, you stand to win more money.

You see, it's pot equity that matters. In each scenario, on the turn, you can't control how much money is in the pot. All you know is that you probably have more than 25% pot equity against these three turkeys, so you make money on every bet that goes in. So betting is correct. Now, what if someone gave you the option of making the pot bigger or smaller right then and there? If you make the pot small enough, they'll be making a mistake in calling you. Is this what you want? Make the pot so small that maybe they'll even fold? Hell no--you want to make that pot as big as possible because you're the favorite. Of course, the fish wouldn't mind, either, if FossilMan came by and threw a rack of black into the pot. But you would like it more than they would.

Against people who will limp in with all kinds of garbage, you cannot deny that AQ will win more than its fair share of the time. So raising preflop would seem to be correct. The more limpers there are, the more correct it is. Remember, a whole lot of these guys are going to fold on the flop for one bet. By not raising preflop you've missed out on your only opportunity to extract more money from them.

The only reasons not to raise preflop are: (1) you think you can make up all those small bets postflop through deception; and (2) by some miracle people will be less inclined to chase because of the smaller pot, thus increasing the likelihood that your hand will be good on the river.

I don't buy it. If you flop an ace and one guy calls you down because he doesn't put you on AQ, will that make up for all the money you left on the table preflop? Most bad players will chase even if you turn your hand face-up. They will also chase if they have any piece of the flop irrespective of pot size. Add to this the possibility that a king will flop and everyone will fold to your flop bet (it does happen once in a blue moon), and you have a pretty convincing case for raising preflop.

There are a lot of other spots where we should be relying on this concept, e.g., when you have a hand that is the best at the moment but extremely vulnerable to all kinds of cards. You have the best hand but you may very well have less than your fair share of pot equity. Wait to see what happens on the turn before you go ape.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
you cannot deny that AQ will win more than its fair share of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out this simulation from twodimes:

Holdem Hi: 501942 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Qh 85130 16.96 410845 81.85 5967 1.19 0.175
8s 7c 82420 16.42 419070 83.49 452 0.09 0.164
Jh Th 88858 17.70 406704 81.03 6380 1.27 0.183
4c Kd 28335 5.65 467879 93.21 5728 1.14 0.062
As 3h 32139 6.40 463836 92.41 5967 1.19 0.070
Ks Js 82633 16.46 407653 81.22 11656 2.32 0.176
5c 5d 85256 16.99 416234 82.92 452 0.09 0.170

Not only is AQo not the best hand, it is not even the second best here.

[astroglide]

fair share 7-ways is 14%. 17% is considerably larger, thus more than its fair share. if it were a straight wager preflop and 5 cards were flipped, everyone but A3 and K4 would profit. clearly this is not how the game is played, but such analysis can be instructive in how one should play. it can also be observed that 17% is an absolute minimum win rate for the hand, as people will fold hands like 87 on an AK9 flop which would have ran a straight if they stuck around.

while there are many heated opinions on the merits of fair share, the fact remains that it does not matter whether or not your hand is best - only that it is profitable.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Check out pp. 175-176 in HEPFAP. The section is in the Loose Games chapter and the title of the section is "Playing AQ."

I won't repeat the entire argument, but basically it says don't raise AQo if you are going to be in a large multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, Mason has also stated that if the players are terrible, you are giving up too much by not raising with AQo (paraphrased). The advice given in HPFAP is for when you are playing against "reasonable" players, who will be playing hands only slightly worse than your own.

[tech]

I agree 100%. I didn't mean to imply that AQ was not profitable in that example. My point is that the value of AQo in spots like this is often overrated relative to other hands.

[tech]

Good point. I guess it depends on the definition of reasonable vs. loose vs. terrible. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[astroglide]

while the numbers do make it appear to be "not so hot" of a hand, 20% (minimum) more than parity is something worth writing home about. there really aren't that many remarkable domination situations in holdem. AA vs AK, AA vs KK, and AK vs AQ (and their equivalents) are the only real beat-downs.

[CORed]

AQ is behind 55 and JTs by a small amount. Howver, it wins more than its fair share EV is 0.175 Break even for 7 players is 0.143 . A preflop raise is still making money.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
your response is...... simple,useless

[/ QUOTE ]


and correct. it's really not that complicated

[FletchJr.]

Finally, a post that is not sure.
Just as everyone states, I think this situation is not as close as everyone thinks.
Plus read page 175 In HPFAP, you might be surprised about what sklansky recommends about big unsuited cards in loose games.

[Kevroc]

Geez, i am a moron, my first thought when I read this one was.. limp or fold, this has BEAT written all over it. I hate playing AQo versus alot of people BUT the fact it is low level and alot of people play garbage from anywhere I suppose you guys are right. (plus you prolly been playing alot longer than I)

[FletchJr.]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, raising will make the pot bigger, but if your opponent flops some sort of draw (which won't happen very often), he'll now pay 1.5 BB (or more) to complete it something like 10% of the time (a gutshot draw, for example). What happens the other 90% of the time? He throws away 1.5BB chasing. I like those odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
If there is 5 bb's in the pot preflop because of my raise and he calls a single bet on the flop, he's getting about 11-1 on his gutshot. say 3 people call the flop, now on the turn he'll be getting about 9 or 10 to one. That's pretty close odds to what he should be getting, plus He'll likely get 1 or 2 bets off me on the river. Which means, he'll be playing his hand correctly.

It's a debate about punishing them later or now.
By not raising the pot will be smaller, which will give him incorrect odds to draw for them gutshots on the turn/flop.
But by not raising you actually let your opponents see a flop with that [censored] for 1 bet. They already played inadequate hands which is a mistake and by raising you force them to make another mistake.

[FletchJr.]

[ QUOTE ]
The advice given in HPFAP is for when you are playing against "reasonable" players, who will be playing hands only slightly worse than your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you suggest not raising with Aqo against "reasonable" players? and raising it against terrible players?
Interesting, in fact the exact opposite of what Mason recommends.

[FletchJr.]

[ QUOTE ]
What? By this logic you should never raise pf after limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not how I meant for someone to interpert this line. We all know Poker is a game of mistakes, I'm just saying raising the pot may really decrease your chances of winning the pot.(which in fact is more EV then worrying about bets)

[FletchJr.]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this question.

The arguments for raising AQ here are pretty obvious and straightforward. You are certainly welcome to argue for limping here but it would be your responsibility to produce some arguments to support that strategy not vice versa.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not try to start an argument for limping. I wanted to discuss the pros and cons of limping and raising.
IT seems like everyone on this forum auto raises AQo in about any position. I don't think you can play this cut and dry with AQ. I think more players have to make some adjustments based on different situations, not based entirely on your hand strength.

[FletchJr.]

great post.
[ QUOTE ]
if you're always putting your money in when you're getting the best of it, you win.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true, but it is well known that you can wait untill a later street to put more money in with a even better situation. ex. waiting for the turn to raise a very strong made hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Hell no--you want to make that pot as big as possible because you're the favorite. Of course, the fish wouldn't mind, either, if FossilMan came by and threw a rack of black into the pot. But you would like it more than they would.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol.
[ QUOTE ]
By not raising preflop you've missed out on your only opportunity to extract more money from them.

[/ QUOTE ]
an important point that no one has posted about yet.

[rtrombone]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just saying raising the pot may really decrease your chances of winning the pot.(which in fact is more EV then worrying about bets)

[/ QUOTE ]

I addressed this in my first response. Do you really think this is true? You play low-limit. Are your opponents going to fold a hand because the pot is small that they would chase with had you raised preflop? Do the people you play against even think on this level? Because if they're going to chase either way, raising preflop is clearly profitable. You can't control the likelihood of your hand holding up on the river, but you can control how much you win if it does.

I thought I analyzed the problem adequately in my first post. If you still have doubts, please be specific about possible flaws in my reasoning.

When I play in a B&M I play 40-80. In my games AQ is always worth a raise preflop because of the sheit that people will limp in with. In fact, I will go so far as to say that if you're in a game where AQ is not worth a raise, you should quit that game. Because this means that people are limping with hands like AK and pocket pairs only, rather than 62 offsuit (the last time I played some guy held this in a capped pot).

Don't just point to a page in HPFAP to back up an argument. Because as good as HPFAP is, it's not always correct. The games for which that book was written are different from the games in which we play today. For instance, the authors advocate not raising with JJ if it's going to result in four or five of you taking the flop. They say you want it 2- or 3- handed or 6-handed or more. Let me tell you something: if people at your table are willing to cold-call with hands like 54 and K3s, raising with JJ is clearly +EV.

I have a problem with the whole concept of certain hands not playing well in loose games/multiway pots. S&M talk about how in these situations you are giving people implied odds. I don't see it. I mean, sure, a chaser benefits from the presence of other chasers. This is the "schooling effect" that so many have written about. They're getting better odds, both immediate and implied, because of the size of the pot and potential overcalls on the turn and river. Sure, nobody's making a mistake according to the Fundamental Theorem. They're all correct to chase. Who cares? If you have more than your fair share of pot equity, you win. It's that simple. Your hand will be good a lot less often than if it were heads-up or three-way, but when it is good you will drag a gargantuan pot. In the long run, the bigger pots will make up for the fact that you take them down less frequently.

Remember, the most common winning hand in hold 'em is one pair. One pair. It's not like stud where you usually need two pair or better.

Here's a link to a thread from the mid-stakes forum that is similar in vein to this one. It didn't get many views so you probably haven't seen it but it's worth a look.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=700180&page=13&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

[sthief09]

I don't think there's ever a reason to fold AQo in a loose game if there's no raise in front of you.

[sthief09]

as far as I remember, you play 3/6. at 3/6 it's an autoraise. at 5/10 it's an autoraise. hell, at party 15/30 it's probably an autoraise. when you're ready to play 30/60 maybe it won't be an autoraise.

you underestimate how much your opponents suck. since they suck, you raise AQo.

[FletchJr.]

Yeah, YOu're right at the moment i play 3/6 online. But the question was actually asked to me by a friend of mine. I told him I auto raise AQo in lower limits 100% of the time. To punish the idiots for playing Junk.

My reasons were similar to some of the ones already said, I told him the guys are going to chase teh gutshots/runner runner's whether or not the pot is large. So you might as well put the money in with the best of it whenever you can. Even though making the pot bigger preflop will actually make your opponents play their hand more correctly, you must raise Preflop.