Weak Tight check

So I've been running bad for a week, online. Thankfully I have a bankroll to back me up, and maybe dragged myself out it tonight with a solid +20 bb win. Anyways, I find myself folding to aggression a lot more than I'm used to and I'm wondering how "good" these are. Here a few specific examples, all comments appreciated. All hands are on Paradise 2/4, usually 30% preflop, all opponents "average-tight" unless otherwise stated.


#1) Loose LP open limps, CO limps, SB completes, I raise with JdJs in the BB. All call except the SB.


Flop: Kd 7d 4s. I bet, LP raises, CO folds, I call.


Turn: 6s. I bet, LP raises, I fold.


.

.


#2) Loose player limps UTG, I raise in the CO with AhKh. BB calls, UTG calls.


Flop: Kc Jc 9h. Checked to me, I bet, BB calls, UTG checkraises, I 3 bet, and now BB caps it - we both call.


Turn: 4d. BB now checks, UTG bets, I fold.


As you might have guessed, UTG had QT for the flopped straight and the BB called him down with another AK.


.

.


#3) (couple weeks ago) 2 EP limpers to me, I raise with AdQc. 2+2er on button coldcalls, BB calls, limpers call.


Flop: Ah 7d 2s. Checked to me, I bet, button raises, everyone else folds, I call.


Turn: 4d. I check, button bets, I raise, button 3-bets, I fold.


.

.


#4) I raise UTG with AdQs. MP and button coldcall, BB calls.


Flop: Ks 6c 2d. BB checks, I bet, MP raises, button coldcalls, BB folds, I fold.


MP did indeed have Kc7c and was called down by the button's TT


.

.


#5) New table: UTG limps, I raise in MP with 9h9s. BB and limper call.


Flop: Ah 3d 5s. BB bets, UTG calls, I fold.


BB had KsJh on a total bluff - and was called down by the also-no-pair UTG's Kh2d... sheesh.


.

.


#6) MP open limps, LP raises, I 3-bet from the BB with AsAd. Both call.


Flop: 7h 8c 2h. I bet, limper raises, LP coldcalls, I 3 bet, both call.


Turn: 8h. I bet, limper raises again, LP folds, I fold.


.

.


#7) Last one.. UTG raises, I 3-bet on the button with AcAd. Both blinds and UTG call.


Flop: 7d 9s 5d. Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls.


Turn: 6h. SB comes out betting. BB folds, UTG calls, I fold.


SB was bluffing with pocket 2s... "fortunetly", river was a Q and UTG had QQ.


Again, all comments appreciated, thanks.

Hi Vehn:


On the first hand I wouldn't raise out of the BB. When you raise, you make the pot twice as large which makes many players more inclined to fight for the pot and make plays. In other words, your question is whether you can believe the raise of your opponent on the flop. If you can, you want to fold on the turn. Well, if you didn't raise before the flop, his raise is probably more believeable unless he is a very sophisticated player. Can you see why?


I'll let others address the other hands.


Best wishes,

mason

There are many stronger than I here, so take this with a large grain of salt. My thoughts--I'm sure Dyansty or Bernie will correct me if I'm wrong.


#1. (JJ, Kxx flop) I'd consider folding on the flop after your raised. He's telling you he has a king. If you don't fold, go into check-call mode--you've no business putting in your own bets.


#2 seems reasonable.


#3 (AQo, Axx flop) Two pair seems really unlikely on this board, esp given the preflop raise, so I'd plan to see this one to the end. Go into check-call mode.


#4 (AQo, Kxx flop) With this many callers, I think you can save yourself a bet by simply going into check-fold mode on the flop.


#5 (99, Axx flop) Good fold. Don't kick yourself over this one. The chances are good you're up against an ace--and even if you're best--which you are--it's hard to know what card beats you. The most you can do is win a small pot, so dropping is probably smart.


#6 (AA, 872 flop, 8 river). I think you got snookered on this one. He could be raising with a lot of hands here--yeah, he might have an eight. He doesn't have a flush. I think you have to check and call here.


#7 (AA, 975 flop, turn6) What are you afraid of, here? Given that he open-raised, you've got to assume you have him beat. Something like KK or QQ or even AK (in which case you're a huge favorite). The straight is pretty unlikely given all the preflop raising.


It does seem to me like you're getting muscled out of pots a little too easily.


Like I said--there are lots of folks here who are better than me. If Dynasty disagrees, listen to him instead. /images/smile.gif

Coz -


I was sweating my g/f one day and you were briefly at her table. Some of the hands you just posted are good examples of an observation I made at the time. Namely, you do too much raise flop, bet/raise turn and then fold when played with. I thought to myself how easy it would be to simply overplay hands against you on the flop and turn and watch you fold. I'm sure that I'm not the only brain surgeon to think of that. It's particularly noticable because you show up in so few pots.


My recommendation is to do a little more "way ahead, way behind" calling down. Get to more showdowns. Your postflop habit of making "good laydowns" is an easy strategy to exploit.

not that weak....i mean...you did bet your hands...


lets take a look


i do agree with clark for the most part, but it also depends if you have a 'thinking' player on your table...but he has a point that eventually even the idiots catch on...


"#1) Loose LP open limps, CO limps, SB completes, I raise with JdJs in the BB. All call except the SB.


Flop: Kd 7d 4s. I bet, LP raises, CO folds, I call.


Turn: 6s. I bet, LP raises, I fold."


i wouldnt have raised here preflop. your not getting anyone out. call, then maybe bet out and see...


"#2) Loose player limps UTG, I raise in the CO with AhKh. BB calls, UTG calls.


Flop: Kc Jc 9h. Checked to me, I bet, BB calls, UTG checkraises, I 3 bet, and now BB caps it - we both call.


Turn: 4d. BB now checks, UTG bets, I fold.


As you might have guessed, UTG had QT for the flopped straight and the BB called him down with another AK. "


why did you call the flop cap, if your going to fold for one bet on the turn? looking for a heart? ill give ya credit for a good read here...nice fold.


"#3) (couple weeks ago) 2 EP limpers to me, I raise with AdQc. 2+2er on button coldcalls, BB calls, limpers call.


Flop: Ah 7d 2s. Checked to me, I bet, button raises, everyone else folds, I call.


Turn: 4d. I check, button bets, I raise, button 3-bets, I fold. "


i wouldve bet out on the turn, call the raise, and call down...and watch him turn over 2 pair or a set. your HU so the action stops with you. and this may also be a cheap way not to get run over. i use HU more-so for this play because of the limited loss youll take...


"#4) I raise UTG with AdQs. MP and button coldcall, BB calls.


Flop: Ks 6c 2d. BB checks, I bet, MP raises, button coldcalls, BB folds, I fold.


MP did indeed have Kc7c and was called down by the button's TT "


good fold...


"#5) New table: UTG limps, I raise in MP with 9h9s. BB and limper call.


Flop: Ah 3d 5s. BB bets, UTG calls, I fold.


BB had KsJh on a total bluff - and was called down by the also-no-pair UTG's Kh2d... sheesh. "


you have position here...a fold is probably the best, but i may have raised and tested him. but again, not a big loss folding...


"#6) MP open limps, LP raises, I 3-bet from the BB with AsAd. Both call.


Flop: 7h 8c 2h. I bet, limper raises, LP coldcalls, I 3 bet, both call.


Turn: 8h. I bet, limper raises again, LP folds, I fold. "


probably beat, but also maybe a good time to call down...if you have a good read, go ahead and drop it. he could very well have a FH.


"#7) Last one.. UTG raises, I 3-bet on the button with AcAd. Both blinds and UTG call.


Flop: 7d 9s 5d. Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls.


Turn: 6h. SB comes out betting. BB folds, UTG calls, I fold.


SB was bluffing with pocket 2s... "fortunetly", river was a Q and UTG had QQ"


here i would likely have raised. a str8 may go for the c/r. maybe not. but he should 3 bet you if he has it.


i tend to use AA HU as my call down hand. not always, but if i feel im folding too much. i dont care if they think i 'cant let it go'. again, your not going to lose much calling down HU. and some are oblivious to HU play, they just see the AA.


about folding too much...this can also sway me to call on the river, even though i know im beat. regardless of my read. and the more aggressive, overrunning type player im against, the better, since it my have more impact.


i dont see anything terribly wrong with your plays. just some minor, optional stuff maybe. after all, they werent all in one session. if it was, id say call at least one. think of it this way, during these sessions, how many players were repeat players? if not many, i wouldnt combine the effect of folding as much. they werent there your last session...


it looks like your reads are good for the most part.


one last thing...


be aware of which player may try to push you out of the pot. there are some, who when they bet, arent bluffing. but be more likely to test a trickier guy, or call him down. not always...but sometimes...again, gauge yourself on whether you think youve folded too much, then adjust briefly to reinstill that you wont be run over...


just some ideas to think about...


b

[#6 (AA, 87h2h flop, 8h turn).]


I think this one is your biggest mistake. If you're not willing to call or 3-bet a raise here, why bet? This is a perfect opportunity for someone to raise with 910s/1010/big heart, especially if they've been paying attention. Anything but bet-fold....


[#7 (AA, 975 flop, turn6)]


You seem to have the opposite problem of most players, who tend to put people on hands they can beat. What were you afraid of here? After all that action, who's really hanging around for a gutshot besides 88? Another great board for observant players to push you off a better hand.

This is a major flaw in my game as well. I too tend to release a hand when I get played back at a little too often.


Thanks for the post, and all the advice. I'll certainly use it to improve my game.

#1) Loose LP open limps, CO limps, SB completes, I raise with JdJs in the BB. All call except the SB.


Flop: Kd 7d 4s. I bet, LP raises, CO folds, I call.


Turn: 6s. I bet, LP raises, I fold.


Mason addressed this


#2) Loose player limps UTG, I raise in the CO with AhKh. BB calls, UTG calls.


Flop: Kc Jc 9h. Checked to me, I bet, BB calls, UTG checkraises, I 3 bet, and now BB caps it - we both call.


It's a mistake to 3-bet. If he is raising on a draw he cannot just take a free card on the turn since you are in position. You can just call down and bet if it get's checked to you.


Turn: 4d. BB now checks, UTG bets, I fold.


As you might have guessed, UTG had QT for the flopped straight and the BB called him down with another AK.


.

.


#3) (couple weeks ago) 2 EP limpers to me, I raise with AdQc. 2+2er on button coldcalls, BB calls, limpers call.


Flop: Ah 7d 2s. Checked to me, I bet, button raises, everyone else folds, I call.


Turn: 4d. I check, button bets, I raise, button 3-bets, I fold.


I think it's easier to just check and call down from the turn onwards. You put in the same number of bets in the pot, right? And he can't outplay you this way--you must show down.

.

.


#4) I raise UTG with AdQs. MP and button coldcall, BB calls.


Flop: Ks 6c 2d. BB checks, I bet, MP raises, button coldcalls, BB folds, I fold.


MP did indeed have Kc7c and was called down by the button's TT


ok.

.

.


#5) New table: UTG limps, I raise in MP with 9h9s. BB and limper call.


Flop: Ah 3d 5s. BB bets, UTG calls, I fold.


BB had KsJh on a total bluff - and was called down by the also-no-pair UTG's Kh2d... sheesh.


Ok

.

.


#6) MP open limps, LP raises, I 3-bet from the BB with AsAd. Both call.


Flop: 7h 8c 2h. I bet, limper raises, LP coldcalls, I 3 bet, both call.


Turn: 8h. I bet, limper raises again, LP folds, I fold.


.

.

Tough poker?


#7) Last one.. UTG raises, I 3-bet on the button with AcAd. Both blinds and UTG call.


Flop: 7d 9s 5d. Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls.


Turn: 6h. SB comes out betting. BB folds, UTG calls, I fold.


By the same sort of logic that you used to fold when you had the 99 above--there was a bet and a call--you can call down here. A made straight is likely to checkraise and not bet out. And if the player in between had the made straight he would raise and charge any flush draws the max. So it's not necessary that you are beaten here. So you can call down.


SB was bluffing with pocket 2s... "fortunetly", river was a Q and UTG had QQ.


Again, all comments appreciated, thanks.


Is it possible that by being too aggressive when you are in the pot that you're having pots taken away from you?

Mason, would the fact that twice previously in the session, the SB completed after a couple limpers, I raised from the BB (with AKs and QQ I think, don't remember if I showed them down), and he folded without calling the extra small bet preflop, change your decision to raise out of the BB with JJ here vs 2 limpers & the SB? Probably should have mentioned that..

If I understand what Mason is saying, by raising preflop with JJ in hand #1, you are making the pot large and encouraging moves by your opponents. The raise by your opponent who is next to act on the flop is less believable.


I initially thought just the opposite. The raise preflop annouces a big hand, and the king high flop could have hit the BB hard, making a play less likely.


Now I think I may understand. The big blind most likely will raise with AA (6 ways), KK (3 ways) QQ (6), or JJ (6). Its 4:3 against the BB liking the flop. Even if we allow for all combinations of AK (12 ways), the BB still not have a pair of kings or better about 1/3 of the time. Not to mention the fact that if he raises with AK, he may with AQ and other hands.


So by raising pre-flop and showing a tendency to fold when pressured, Vehn is offering 9:2 (pot) odds on a worst case 2:1 shot on the flop raise. Of course, there are still 2 other players, but I think this must be why the raise encourages plays.


Is this right?

You have a good point. I reviewed my HH'es against your GF (assuming she uses her first name as her ID), and I did see some of that for whatever reason, especially in the 53 hands I was at her table, and you're right, its probably being picked up on.


And yes I think I've been patting myself on the back for "good laydowns" a bit too much lately, especially since I've recently started playing 2/4 on PP full time, and people will put moves on you at a much higher frequency than at the lower limits. Its hard to say. Thanks for the input, though.

Hope it helps bro. Don't go overboard by calling everyone down, though. Just find those situations, particularly headsup, where you can see the showdown for the same 2 bets as raise-folding the turn.


Anyhoo - just trying to be helpful.