Caught in the middle

Online 3/6 game. The mood at the table is not good. One other 2+2'er present (Balt999) but he wasn't involved in the hand. I'll try to give you some background. First hand I played I posted in the cutoff. Player to my right raised and I had K6o, but called him anyway. (Thought it might be a steal and I liked my position). It was 3 bet from the blinds and I reluctantly put 3 more in the pot. Flopped 2 pair and won a 20BB pot on my first hand. The pre flop raiser hasn't stopped whining about my cold call since (Although I never called 2 cold). The other player in this hand has been yapping at my tormentor non stop as well and raising far more than the normal distribution of cards would indicate possible.


On to my hand. I am in the BB with Jh Jc. EP limp from a very solid player who is up around $200 in the 1/2 hour I've been at the table. The tormentor raises from MP and my new buddy calls from the SB. (As a humorous aside after criticising me for playing K6 he proceeded to showdown 74s on the very next hand). I just called as did the EP.


*** FLOP *** : [ 5s Ts 5d ]


My buddy bets out and I raise him. EP folds but The tormentor 3 bets. We both just call. Anyone 4 bet here?


*** TURN *** : [ 5s Ts 5d ] [ 3s ]


Now budy bets out again. It is very easy to imagine him with a 5 in his hand or playing any 2 suited. Stuck in the middle of these two I decided to fold.


Comments?


Tormentor just called him down and again on the river. I was afraid of being caught in a raising war.


As you've probably guessed my hand was good, but I don't want to be too results oriented here. I thought I might be facing at least 3 BB's to get to a showdown and maybe more. Was this a good laydown?


Buddy had Ah 9h and was running a total bluff.


Tormentor had Qh Th and took down the pot.


On the plus side I had a very successful night isolating these two with three bets later on and posted a nice win for the evening.

Hey Dave...


I would like to cap the flop here. The 3-bet came from the tormenter, who sounds like he could have anything from a 5 to top pair bad kicker or worse. Your buddy doesn't cap indicating that he likely doesn't have a 5 or spades (from your description it sounds like he would love to cap the tormenter here if he did).


The right move on the turn is a tough decision. I would venture that the correct play is dependent on the information you have about your buddy. Will he bet scare cards as a bluff? Does he tend to only bet, especially in hands that have seen some preflop and flop raising, when he has the goods? Against an average/passive player, I muck like you did. Against this guy (loose-aggressive form the sounds of it), I really really really like a raise here. It has a good chance of driving both the tormentor and your buddy out if he has a marginal hand. In addition, if he does have a 5 you will slow him down big time as he has almost no choice but to put you on a flush and check to you on the river (allowing you to check it down if you wish). If you are 3-bet, you can muck and have no regrets. This hand is a good example of how much you have to change your standard game to play optimally against L/A players.


-JAA


P.S. Next time I would advise putting the results in a separate post. IMO, it is a little easier to analyze a hand when the results are unknown.

JAA, thanks for the reply. If this hand had come up later in the session I probably would have just called them both down. As I discovered they would play anything, and my buddy really had a hard-on to get even with me. From this hand on I never would have folded an overpair to these guys.


I usually do post my results seperately, in this case I figured everyone would realise I wouldn't have posted it unless my hand was good.

Your call with the K,6o was simply terrible and if you routinely make plays like this you have a huge leak in your game.


How can you think it is a steal on the first hand online? If you are going to play, you are far better off reraising to isolate raiser and to steal the initiative.


Your play with the JJ is dependant on your reads of the two players.

Tough spot. I am not sure of the best play here, but here are a few things to consider.


1.) This situation is probably very player dependant. Against solid straight forward players you are probably beat enough times here to fold.


2.) It would be a much easier fold if the pot wasent so large (9.5 BB I believe). If there is a high enough chance that the SB is a manic on a hand worse than yours then it may be worth it to stay in.


3.) If you do stay in you would want to raise the turn. This could very realistically nock out a MP with many better hands than you or just dangerous overcards. Plus, you will get info from the SB. If either one raises back you can easily fold. If they just call you may get to see the showdown for free. The down side of this is that it will cost you a minimum of 2 more big bets when usually you are behind and drawing to to the 2 other jacks (which might not even be good)


4.) If the problem is you suspect your oponent of over playing their hands you probably should have reraised the flop. This will tell you more about how much they like there hand for cheaper. It may also slow them down enough to get you to they showndown for a single BB.


5.) Well with all this said I think you have to be ahead of the SB at this point about 30% to even consider staying in. Against most players you are beat here more than 70% of the time.


I hope this gives you some ideas


Joe

I didnt read the post by JAA before I responded. I just wanted to mention this because if I was just using other peoples ideas without thinking it through myself my response would be useless.


But after reading his reponse I am more confident with my advice.


Good luck

Joe

I too would have folded. With the JJ I'm generally looking for a set. If I get an overpair because rags flop I'd certainly bet or even raise, but I don't think we can ever be too comfortable with just JJ. So that's one hand I'm willing to release if someone is playing back at me, and I definately don't want to be stuck in the middle of two raisers with that hand.

"First hand I played I posted in the cutoff. Player to my right raised and I had K6o, but called him anyway. (Thought it might be a steal and I liked my position). It was 3 bet from the blinds and I reluctantly put 3 more in the pot."


Yeah, this was really bad on your part to call the raise and then this guy's 3-bet. Especially since that 3-bet guy was ME, lol. I almost puked when you showdowned K6o. BTW, you busted my pocket rockets on that hand. Also, I think I'm the "very solid (EP) player" in your note, and if so, thank you for the compliment. I forgive you now. I don't know how solid I am, but I certainly was the terror of the table that night! What a great table that was. Made your busting of my AA more tolerable :-).


e

I guess I should have said two other 2+2'ers then. I don't recall seeing you posting here, sorry for the omission.


Yes the K6 was a horrible call. I won't try to defend it. But it's nice to be on that side of the play once in a while.


I too was way up until the two idiots left. Then I tangled with you 3 times too many and saw my $200 win shrink to around $100.


Yes you were the Solid EP in the hand. I was very impressed with your play. I don't recall seeing any sub-par hands shown down...although on some of my crying calls I was rooting for them.


See you at the tables.