BAD PLAY??

On Line $.50/$1.00 game. I am in the big blind with AKo. Table is very loose passive - 4-5 taking flop 7-8bb pots. I know that AKo doesn't play particularly well in these kind of games.


Anyway,

UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls (all three have seen about every flop since I sat down).


I just check in the bb (is this my first mistake? - again I knew that no one would fold to a raise and figured it was worth the deception if i hit).


2bbs in pot


FLOP: 10d Js 2h


Either Aaron Lovi or Clarkmeister once said on this forum that Overcards + Gutshot = CAP (If I misquote you I apologize - that just stood out to me). I check, utg+1 and +2 check button bets out, I raise(Is this the right play here? or is this a fold/call?)


5bbs in pot

UTG + 1 calls UTG +2 folds, co calls.


Turn: [ 5d ] [ Td Js 2h ]


I bet, utg+1 calls, co raises (uh oh...here we go again..)


9bbs in pot, an A or K might still be a winner, the 4 queens (no diamond) give me broadway - so do I call this very easily with the 12 outs, or am I playing an 11:1 at this point (I assume that utg+2 is going to call - so it is 10:1 to call here + I think I can get a check raise on the river if my card falls and potentially 4 additional bbs)


Questions:

1.) Is this a raise preflop with 3 already in?

2.) Is the check raise on the flop the correct play with the open bet on the button - trying to get my hand heads up against him?

3.) Is it an easy call on the turn or do I lay this down?


Flame away

Results to follow.

Kevin

I call, utg+1 called

11bbs in pot


River:[ Qc ][ Td Js 2h 5d ]


I guess it really pays to shout come on queen come on queen at the top of your lungs (although my three year old looks at me funny...)


I check, UTG+2 checks, button bets, I raise utg+2 folds (did I miss a bet here?) button calls. I show my AK0 and take it down.


I find out from the hand history that button had 22 and flopped a set - this was my second suckout of the weekend and I need to be scorned if this was not the right play.


Thanks for the feedback.

Kevin

OK here goes.....


1.) Is this a raise preflop with 3 already in?

I personally raise here with 3 in for the flop in a loose-passive game. Why, you ask?

Loose - People will be playing almost any Ace and sometimes any King. You will dominate them with your kicker.

Passive - Passive players often tend to check around on the flop after a raise, allowing you to see the turn for free if you miss the flop.


2.) Is the check raise on the flop the correct play with the open bet on the button - trying to get my hand heads up against him?


OK. About that whole "Overcards + Gutshot=CAP" thing, change the "CAP" to "CRAP" and you'll be about right (I'm almost positive thats a misquote)


Check-raising is about the last thing you want to do here. You have 10 outs if (and this is a huge if) the better is holding top pair or worse and does not have an A or K kicker. You're a little better than 4:1 here, so a call is acceptable as long as UTG+1 and +2 aren't known for check-raising flops. Now if you drop our convenient assumption, folding is your best option. The decision between calling and folding ultimately lies in your judgment of the better's playing style and betting standards in this situation.


3.)Is it an easy call on the turn or do I lay this down?


The absolute last thing you do here is bet out. But since you did, and were raised, you can lay down the hand without a 2nd thought. Here's why: a loose passive player raising a previous aggressor (you) on the turn is absolutely screaming that he has two pair or better, likely much better. This known, you now have 3 clean outs, giving you about a 14:1 shot at the nuts and 11.5:1 shot at the nut straight. With 9 BB in the pot when the action comes around to you, you can fold and have no regrets. In a perfect world, you would've saved yourself 1BB by check/folding.


Hope this helps!!!


Off to check the results...JAA

Haven't peeked. Here's a couple of random thoughts:


I most definitely never said overcards+gutshot=cap.


AKo plays well in any game.


I would have raised preflop. You only have 3 opponents. Of course, I'd usually raise regardless, but the "check to keep the pot small" arguement in favor of not raising really isn't at all valid with only 3 opponents.


The flop checkraise is standard solid play against a decent (read: at least moderately aggressive) opponent. Against a straightforward "only bets when they have it" player, maybe call. But raising is very legit.


Once you c/r the flop, betting the turn is fine, especially since you are likely to call a bet.


Calling the raise on the turn is fine, but again it is player dependant. You certainly figure to pick up the extra 2BBs or more if you spike a queen. The problem is that you figure to lose a bonus BB if an A or K come. I suspect that an A or K is rarely an out for you since your opponent figures to have a set here the majority of the time, and 2 pair the rest. But most people will pay off if they hit their A or K here. So your call isn't quite as attractive as it looks because you get to lose a bonus BB about 15% of the time if you call the river when you pair up.


But if you call just for the straight and muck all others, your call is probabaly ok. But viewing the overcards as outs is a mistake the vast majority of the time.

I would have raised pre-flop. You only have three opponents.


If you think there is a good chance that the cut-off is trying to steal this one, then I like the check-raise. If he definitely has a pair here then the check-raise is an attempt to get it heads-up with you having the worst of it... in other words, a bad idea.


I think you can call on the turn.

Small Stakes Hold'em


Re: Do I have a call here?


Posted By: Aaron Lovi

Date: Wednesday, 29 May 2002, at 1:42 a.m.


In Response To: Do I have a call here? (Kevin)


I'd like to try to cap the flop in your situation. Overcards + gutshot = cap in my poker algebra. Maybe you might drop someone by accident on the flop. If not, you might get a late position player to bet the turn instead of the BB (which unforunately happened in your scenario). The problem with BB betting the turn is not your immediate odds but what's going to happen in the very likely case that someone behind you will raise. Your odds get cut up.


And I find that it's a useful general rule to follow that if you are drawing weak and someone on your right bets and you fear a raise on your left then you should fold. The more people remaining to act behind you, the stronger an indication that you should fold.

My only question is on the raise preflop (I have seen all three come back with yes raise preflop.. so I am seeing a trend here)


"Passive players often tend to check around on the flop after a raise, allowing you to see the turn for free if you miss the flop."


Since I am in the big blind I have to lead out the betting.


Kreiger suggests in his book (again if I am understanding correctly) that is right in some instances to check off the AKo for deception - when it this correct?


Also, I think that if the 22 came back over the check raise and played his set fast, I would have either folded right there or definitely check-folded the turn without hesitation. I also thought that there was a chance that he had middle pair and picked up a flush draw on the turn with the second of suit.


Thanks again for the feedback. I don't want to be the guy that causes the waiting lists to fill up when they see my name - so this will help me in the future.


Kevin

he play 89s the same way - straight draw on flop picks up flush draw on turn - 16 outs (I think 8 straight outs, 7 flush outs (wo counting q or 7 twice). or would this be a hand that he checks off the flop to see it as cheap as possible and calls the turn. Also, is there a chance that he would play a hand like top/middle pair 2 of suit the same way?


Thanks

Kevin

Hey Kevin...


"Since I am in the big blind I have to lead out the betting."


I would argue that you don't "have" to lead out betting in this situation. At this point you have nothing but the nut no pair and wouldn't mind seeing a free turn. I don't see any logical need for deception here, since the hand you hold is marginal after the flop. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't mind letting the other 2 players in for one bet rather than check-raising and making it two. Let them try to catch top pair with their Ax or Kx. Then they'll be committed to calling you down with a 2nd best hand, if your hand is good (which in this particular case wouldn't have been versus the 22).


A final note: Keep this in perspective - Although you hit this time, the other 10.5 times you miss. One of those times you make your hand but lose most likely 2BB to the diamond flush when the Q of diamonds hits. In addition, as Clarkmeister pointed out, you have to pay off when you catch any A or K, giving you a dreaded 2nd bester. The way the hand played out, in the long run you wouldn't be losing anything and would probably gain a bit if you check/called the flop and check/folded the turn when you didn't improve.


Many more rivers like that one,


-JAA

There are almost no LL players, and very few mid limit players who are going to semibluff raise 2 people on the turn. He would bet the flop certainly, but would not raise the turn.

I most definitely never said overcards+gutshot=cap.


I don't know why, but, man, this really had me laughing.