Top 2 pair on a 3 flush flop

[Bobby Digital]

Rarely do I ever feel lost in a hand, but this hand made me wonder how to best play it. How would you proceed on the flop?

Party Poker 10+1 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed)

Hero (t905)
UTG (t565)
MP1 (t1155)
MP2 (t1700)
CO (t1520)
Button (t520)
SB (t1635)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t50, CO calls t50, Button calls t50, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t250) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>

Final Pot: t250

[faughtandone]

i would most likely check from first position and see what develops. if there is a good size bet and then a raise you can probably lay it down. if it is checked to a late position player you can go for the check raise and have a better idea of how to proceed. most players will push the non nut flush pretty hard in a tourney to scare out the A of hearts, however a LP player will often run a naked semi-bluff with the A or K. i definately think in this situation you can get more info by checking from early position and not have to put a lot of chips at risk only to be faced with a tough decision.

of course that is only my humble opinion, any thoughts or disagreements are welcomed.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
i would most likely check from first position and see what develops. if there is a good size bet and then a raise you can probably lay it down. if it is checked to a late position player you can go for the check raise and have a better idea of how to proceed. most players will push the non nut flush pretty hard in a tourney to scare out the A of hearts, however a LP player will often run a naked semi-bluff with the A or K. i definately think in this situation you can get more info by checking from early position and not have to put a lot of chips at risk only to be faced with a tough decision.

of course that is only my humble opinion, any thoughts or disagreements are welcomed.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if he calls you, and nothing helps on the turn? do you keep betting to the river? if so, how much do you bet?

[faughtandone]

[ QUOTE ]
what if he calls you, and nothing helps on the turn? do you keep betting to the river? if so, how much do you bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
it depends on who "he" is. chip size and read are important factors of course. my main point is that if you bet out on the flop many players (especally on party) will auto raise w/ only one big flush card and then what do you do? because you have outs to a boat i prefer checking here and either being able to fold w/out losing any chips to a bet and raise, or having the option of calling a small value bet from one player with outs, or check raising a player i suspect of being out of line.

[Bobby Digital]

I was thinking along the lines of check-folding or check-raising depending on who bet, or what the bet was. Not that this is a common situation, it just got me thinking because I felt so crippled after that flop.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

In NL, if you really have no idea where you are in a hand, your default play should be check-fold.

Specifically about this hand. There are three factors to consider: 1) the pot is 250 and you have 855 left. If you check and there's any reasonable sized bet, your only raise option will be all-in. If someone makes the weak move of betting 50, you can raise to 300 or so unless you really think weak means strong for that player. 2) At this level, players love to play flush draws for all their chips. Thus any strong move against you does not necessarily mean you're behind.

However, with so many players in the pot, you really can't lead out. Bottom line, if you think you're better than the field, the risk is too great. I'd check and fold to any kind of serious pressure.

[pshreck]

Sorry, but in on way do I think this is the correct play.

I think it is obvious to check from an early position. There is a decent chance that an ace with any kicker will bet out here, possibly large.

Any calls could simply be the K or Q of hearts (this is likely in SNG's).

People will also call with QQ and KK (possibly no hearts) because many poor players in the SNG's REFUSE to lay this down no matter what the board shows.

I would say that overall, you are getting all your chips in here once it is check raised back to you.

Over time, you will lose some hands to people hitting their flush or those who have flopped it. Even in those situations you will occasionaly hit your boat to double up anyways.

You WANT this flop with a two pair... it significantly increases your chances of doubling up with it. Here are the reasons why:

1. I notice that weak players who play ax offsuit preflop seem to think they should make a HUGE raise on this flop to 'protect' their top pair, and drive out flush draws. It happens all the time, with a2 through ak. You will double up on these players 95% of the time, when you push and it gets back to them they are 1) pot committed and 2) think you are drawing at the flush.

2.) Many people will bet out there KQ (1 heart) or QJ, Q10 (all 1 heart) with a semi bluff. They will call when you push because of pot commitment.

3.) The first raise will less than 1 time in 15 have flopped the flush.... even good players will slowplay this sometimes, and weak players will almost always slowplay this.

4.) If it is simply checked ALL the way around back to you, you check again. I think it is much more likely that someone in the field is slowplaying. You will fold to any significant bets on 4th or river.... however, the times when you hit your boat in this situation is almost a guaranteed double up.

In short, if you can get all your money on the flop in in this situation with a check raise to a large bet, then do it every time. After the flop, fold to any good sized bet because only morons (not fish) will make significant bluffs with that boards, and most of the time this will mean you are behind. Call down medium sized bets, with hopes of being the best hand or hitting a boat.

I think in the long run this is the best way to play this hand, you have to be willing to get knocked out early a few times to double up many more times.

[ddubois]

Any know what the odds are of someone having flopped a flush in this situation? With one person it would be approximately 4%, so I'm guessing with 5 players it's somewhere around 15-20%.

Let me preface this by saying I am a total NL newbie, and do not know any fundamental theorems of SOP tactics.... I would probably just push all-in. You can't give a singelton heart proper odds to draw out on you. If you check, letting a singleton heart semi-bluff the pot, then raise all-in, they might feel pot committed (and after their bet and your raise, the pot odds are close enough that it might right to call). You want to devise a scenario where their call is a mistake, not one where its correct.

On the other hand, I would feel better about this line if you had a set, as that would give you many more outs for the house.

I'm pretty sure there are fatal flaws in my line of reasoning. Please explain where my thinking is flawed. The alure of pushing from a newbie's perspective is that it eliminates your ability to make mistakes on later streets, so it is a tool I am pretty sure I am over-using (although so far, it has been to great effect).