Three turn three-bets w/ one pair

[Ulysses]

Opinions, please.

Hand 1

Turn checkraiser is pretty aggro.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: akshawnd is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, MP folds, CO calls, akshawnd raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, akshawnd bets, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, akshawnd bets, BB raises, UTG folds, CO calls, akshawnd 3-bets, BB calls, CO calls.

River: (16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB bets, CO calls, akshawnd folds.

Hand 2

My opponents seem to be average levels of bad.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: akshawnd is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG posts a blind of $10.
UTG (poster) checks, MP calls, akshawnd raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
UTG checks, MP bets, akshawnd raises, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
UTG checks, MP checks, akshawnd bets, UTG raises, MP calls, akshawnd 3-bets, UTG calls, MP calls.

River: (15.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
UTG checks, MP checks, akshawnd checks.

Hand 3

Nothing of note re: my opponent.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: akshawnd is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, MP calls, Button folds, SB completes, akshawnd checks.

Flop: (3 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, akshawnd bets, MP calls, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, akshawnd bets, MP folds, SB raises, akshawnd 3-bets, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
SB checks, akshawnd checks.

[Schneids]

Hand 1: Looks good. If I'm playing bad I overcall on the river but I think it's safe to say you are beat.

Hand 2: Your line seems fine. I don't know if it's correct or not but I've been calling the check raise and then calling the impending river bet, because it almost always seems like when the players semibluff c/r me they will follow through on the river when they miss, so I still collect a bet from them anyway (which you are presumedly trying to do with the 3-bet) while not risking getting reraised and put in a sticky spot.

Hand 3: Almost definitely not a flush. I think a case can be made for betting the river since even if he has a ten I doubt he'll check raise. Were you planning to check any river other than a diamond or ace?

[stripsqueez]

#1 i wasnt sure for a while - i like call on the irver

#2 i wondered what was wrong with just calling down after the turn raise - it looks strange to 3 bet the turn and not bet the river

#3 i suppose this is different to #2 because you have a better draw when you 3 bet the turn - you went past Q8 and A8 on the river so it again looks weird not to bet

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Apocalypse]

(havent read other replies)

keeping it short cuz' of my hangover so i doubt this response will contribute anything but what the hey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

hand 1: strong fold but correct imo (i doubt it wether im able at this point to make such a fold)

hand 2: figuring MP for a draw (i think a straight draw cuz of his flop bet) but what the hell is UTG on? overpair would be my guess but otherwise i really don't know

hand 3: love it from top to bottom

[Vehn]

am I the only one who raises here preflop in hand 3 all the time?

[samdash]

I usually do as well unless I'm getting no respect because of previous hands. This is definitely a +EV play in terms of what the other players are likely to be holding.

[samdash]

Hand #3 he now splits with any other ace on the river, except AK. I see very little value in a river bet here, I think the main purpose of 3 betting the turn was his position and probably a 10% chance he was ahead on the turn. This information makes the 3 bet/free showdown unless improve play profitable.

[Gramps]

Is MP's presence/coldcall the reason for the 3-bet in hand 2 (since it's likely he's on a draw and UTG could be C/R a worse hand)? If I don't have a read on UTG, I usually puss out and call the Turn here - even if UTG has a worse hand he'll probably bet the River. If he's the sort that likes to make the semi-bluff Turn C/R play on a paired board, I like the 3-bet for value, especially with MP's coldcalling presence.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #3 he now splits with any other ace on the river, except AK

[/ QUOTE ]

i missed that its a split with an A - it looks a lot better now to me because your opponent having a worse A was a big part of the turn 3 bet upside

[ QUOTE ]
I see very little value in a river bet here, I think the main purpose of 3 betting the turn was his position and probably a 10% chance he was ahead on the turn. This information makes the 3 bet/free showdown unless improve play profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

i still dont like it much - i cant get past seeing the turn 3 bet as a bet for value - certainly the river has probably hurt your chances of not splitting but to say that the river sufficently undermines your view on the turn such that you dont bet seems a bit too precise to me - obviously its different if you have multiple opponents on the turn

3 betting here is always fine if you can gaurantee that there will be no cap and it will always be checked to you on the river and you were always calling down after the turn raise - lots of ifs

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
am I the only one who raises here preflop in hand 3 all the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Vehn, I usually raise here w/ just one limper. Don't remember if I didn't for some specific reason here or if I just missed it multi-tabling. I definitely make mistakes here and there due to 4-tabling.

[Ulysses]

Hand 1

I put the guy in the middle on something like JT or some draw - I was sure I had him beat. The checkraise I thought could potentially have some crap two pair, but more likely he was pumping a flush draw - esp. one like Ac5c that picked up a pair, picked one up on the turn w/ something like 67, or something like that. The river card not only made the flush, but also made someone with a straight draw either the straight or two pair. Ironically, I might be more likely to call here if turn checkraiser capped - since that makes something like KJ more possible against an aggro.

BB shows 7c 7s (straight, seven high).
CO shows Ah 6d (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: BB wins 18 BB.

Hand 2

I seriously considered just calling down here, but I wanted to charge the guy in the middle who easily could have had a draw that wouldn't pay again on the river. The spade on the river swayed what I thought was a close decision - I normally bet again here, but the CR/call on the turn made me think UTG might be CRing w/ a picked up draw. Obviously wrong, heh.

UTG shows 3s Tc (three of a kind, tens).
MP shows 8h Jd (two pair, tens and eights).
akshawnd shows Kc Kd (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: UTG wins 15.75 BB.

Hand 3

I thought I was likely ahead on the turn to a worse Ace, probably one with a worse diamond to go with it. But my opponent could easily have something like KdTx, looking to checkraise the turn. Or maybe even a small flush. Since the worse Ace, the most likely hand he has that pays me off, now chops w/ me, I decided to check. Guess I was wrong on my read...

SB shows Kd 5d (flush, king high).
akshawnd shows Js Ad (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: SB wins 9 BB.


I think all three of these hands are similar and clearly debateable, hence the post.