All the chips are going in, but when is the best time?

[Grivan]

It is a party poker 30+3 MTT towards the end of the second hour blinds are 150/300. Hero has 2572 chips which is the second shortest at the table.

Hero has Ad Kh in middle position it is folded to him, and he raises it to 3x the BB (900) chips. A bigger stack (7000 chips) one off the button raises to 1500, and all fold back to the hero.

At this point the hero can go all in for another 1072, or call and go all in first on any flop. Which is the better move?

[fnord_too]

After the flop definitely. If you are committed to this hand (i.e. not willing to lay it down before the flop), there is NO WAY 1k will make the other guy fold pre flop, and only a slight chance he will fold post flop, but a slight chance is better than no chance.

[woodguy]

AK plays better with all the cards out (often an A or K will hit on 4th and 5th)
You are shortstacked, and this is a great time to double up.
Push em in.
woodguy

[whiskeytown]

ditto what everyone said

1...it's great all-in (as David S. recommends)
2...against anything but AA, you're probably getting pot odds
3...you're pot committed anyways - anytime you get more then a third of your chips in preflop, you might as well finish the job - and you've put in 900 out of 2572 - so go for it...

but I can't think of a reason as the first poster says to call and then go all in post flop - you might as well shove all in preflop for the above reasons listed -

RB

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

I would think that getting in post flop would be better. Your opponent clearly isn't going to fold pf, and if the flop completely misses him, he may well lay it down post. Where am I going wrong with my thinking?

[Grivan]

The reason for calling and then pushing post flop is it increases fold equity. You might get a small pair to lay down on the flop if it comes 3 overcards to it, and it generally will increase your chance of winning the pot. If you push preflop there is no way the opponent is going to lay down anything.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason for calling and then pushing post flop is it increases fold equity. You might get a small pair to lay down on the flop if it comes 3 overcards to it, and it generally will increase your chance of winning the pot. If you push preflop there is no way the opponent is going to lay down anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly correct. You may also get someone who is drawing to 6 clean outs to fold. See David's essay here (http://www.twoplustwo.com/dsessay11.html)

[davidross]

Because if the flop misses him completely or hits you, you don't want him getting away from the hand. You want those extra chips. THe only reason to stop and go is if you think he will lay down a better hand post flop and I can't imagine that happening.

[davidross]

But in the given example I seiously doubt you are up against a hand that would have 6 clean outs. He's made a huge raise over top of a raiser, he doesn't have QJs. I seriously doubt he has a pair under J's. If we're lucky he has AQs, but we're probably looking at QQ. DOn't let him off the hook if the flop comes with an A.

[pudley4]

He didn't make a huge raise, he made the minimum raise. Also, if you do hit your hand hard, you can just check the flop and even the turn. It won't hurt you because you were intending on getting all the money in anyway, so if he does draw out on you, he was going to anyway.

[GrinningBuddha]

Consider: If you take the blinds, you are increasing your stack by almost 20%.

Once I have less that 10x the big blind, I'm typically pushing in if I'm playing pre-flop.

Failing that, the raise was fine. When he min-raises you, that should set off a warning bell in your head. He wants you to call. Either that, or he's donating. You never know on Party.

Regardless, you're going to be calling off 1500 of your 2500 chips. Do you really think that he's going to fold when you bet T1000 into a T3450 pot? Not likely.

I agree more with the stop n go if you had a big stack, since you can bet big enough to make him fold. You can't with your stack. Get 'em in there preflop. Preferably before he ever acts.