Cheating at the WSOP?

[EWillers]

I'm not technologically savvy or nething, but wouldn't it be not impossible for somebody to pick up the hole card cam signals for the feature table at the WSOP?

And if it's not impossible to do that, wouldn't it be easy to plant someone in the audience with a cell phone and feed them the strength of a would be opponent's hand.

And if it's possible to do that, couldn't that person in the stands signal his man at the table as to the strength of his opponent on a given hand.

All you A/V geeks out there tell me why i'm worried about something that could never happen. Please tell me.

Thanks

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not technologically savvy or nething, but wouldn't it be not impossible for somebody to pick up the hole card cam signals for the feature table at the WSOP?

And if it's not impossible to do that, wouldn't it be easy to plant someone in the audience with a cell phone and feed them the strength of a would be opponent's hand.

And if it's possible to do that, couldn't that person in the stands signal his man at the table as to the strength of his opponent on a given hand.

All you A/V geeks out there tell me why i'm worried about something that could never happen. Please tell me.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

You're worried about something that could never happen unless the event becomes broadcast live with the hole card cams in use. The signal has to be transmitted to be intercepted and currently it is not transmitted anywhere, it's filmed, taped and then edited elsewhere, there is no broadcasting to pick-up in the manner you mention.

[Hiding]

If it the cameras are on a cable (not RF signal of anykind) then the only way to cheat would be the guys in the booth with the feed, you cant tap a hard wire(without contact). If they are on RF (bluetooth, etc) then they are fools, but I would venture a guess they have thought of that

[illunious]

If the hole cams are displayed live on monitors, it would be possible to use a "Tempest" (electomagnetic radiation capturing/decoding) device to view the cards.

I have no idea if this is feasible. I would think the easier approach would be to tap the lines running from the table.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
If the hole cams are displayed live on monitors

[/ QUOTE ]
They're not. The hole cams are wired to recording devices in a black box somewhere and it's all totally off-limits to any human involvement until after the tournament is over.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the hole cams are displayed live on monitors

[/ QUOTE ]
They're not. The hole cams are wired to recording devices in a black box somewhere and it's all totally off-limits to any human involvement until after the tournament is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read somewhere (possibly on the official website) that during WPT tapings there is one techinician who does see all the hole cards. The reason he has to see them is to ensure that all the hole cards are properly recorded. A week ago, I could have sworn that I heard a tournament/WPT offical lean into a player and tell him that his cards weren't captured by the camera. It was during the Gus Hansen/Forget-his-name heads-up last week. The Forget-his-name player then pulled his hole cards in and lifted them, presumably for the camera.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
I read somewhere (possibly on the official website) that during WPT tapings there is one techinician who does see all the hole cards. The reason he has to see them is to ensure that all the hole cards are properly recorded.

[/ QUOTE ]
That appears to be how the WPT does it. "The way the setup was described to me is that the live video feed is seen by only one person in a secure location. This person watches the action to ensure that the hole cards are being shown in the camera. This person can notify the floor if a player is not looking at his hole cards in a way that the camera can see them, and the floor will tell the player what they need to do." link (http://www.wptfan.com/article.php?story=20040331213821343).

For the WSOP, I remember seeing something on TV about it before last year's event, and I'm pretty sure they said that nobody sees it until after the tournament is over. But I could be remembering it wrong.

[maurile]

Speaking of cheating at the WSOP, what about those two kings of diamonds being shown down on the same hand? There's got to be more to that story, but I haven't heard anything other than a very brief mention of it on a few sites' day one recaps.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of cheating at the WSOP, what about those two kings of diamonds being shown down on the same hand? There's got to be more to that story, but I haven't heard anything other than a very brief mention of it on a few sites' day one recaps.

[/ QUOTE ]

The day after this happened at the WSOP, I sat in a Monte Carlo 4-8 game while waiting to go to the movies across the street (Shrek 2). It was a new 4-8 game. A few hands in, somebody was holding the Kd and another Kd came on the board.

[iceblink]

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of cheating at the WSOP, what about those two kings of diamonds being shown down on the same hand? There's got to be more to that story, but I haven't heard anything other than a very brief mention of it on a few sites' day one recaps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't heard any more details on this incident either, but what would be the cheating angle here? How would you get an advantage if you knew there was an extra Kd in the deck? Doesn't seem to me there's much to be gained, and I believe the hand is declared a misdeal if the discrepancy is discovered, e.g. on the showdown.

Deck irregularities like this should be caught by the dealer when he/she fans the new deck (which is in sequence) face-up on the table before shuffling. I assume this practice is used at the WSOP--it certainly should be. I would think that something like this would've been prevented in the first place by a thorough examination of the decks before the tournament even began. Granted there are a lot of decks involved, but this IS the WSOP after all!

On a deck-related note, does anyone know if they're using the bridge-sized or poker-sized cards at the WSOP? When I dealt poker in Vegas back in the early 90's, I recall that the narrower, bridge-sized Kem decks seemed to be the standard, but I've heard that the larger, poker-sized cards are being used more now.

[pudley4]

Remember the hand Lederer had last year at the WSOP where no one saw his hole cards, but he ended up winning the hand? It was one of the hands shown during the telecast. If they had someone monitoring the feed, they most likely would have told him the cameras didn't pick up his cards, and they'd like him to show them one more time.

[RollaJ]

It seems Men the Master was actually rigging his own camera at foxwoods to slip under the table by each player. Unfortunately, while testing the cameras he started a fire and could not use them. Seems he blamed the fire on an electric burner he had in the room. This plan backfired though as he was then kicked out of the hotel for failing to follow the fire code......Who knows

[Peter]

What happens if you don't oblige? I'd be pretty paranoia with a camera in my neck. They're not going to see my cards.

Peter

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
What happens if you don't oblige? I'd be pretty paranoia with a camera in my neck. They're not going to see my cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

ON the WPT you sign an agreement that you will show your cards. You can be disqualified if you don't comply.

I think I saw something similar in the huge disclaimer that I signed for the WSOP this year.

When I was in Vegas for satellites I attended the Wednesday poker meet-upand the media director for the WSOP and Linda from the WPT were the guest speakers. This issue came up.

They explained that there is now an extra "rabbit hole" camera by the dealer and, If you hide your cards from the camera behind you, the dealer is instructed to flash them in front of the Rabbit camera at the end of the hand.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems Men the Master was actually rigging his own camera at foxwoods to slip under the table by each player. Unfortunately, while testing the cameras he started a fire and could not use them. Seems he blamed the fire on an electric burner he had in the room. This plan backfired though as he was then kicked out of the hotel for failing to follow the fire code......Who knows

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard this rumor was completely false, and Men the Master himself went on a well known forum or maybe even Cardplayer Magazine to debunk what had happened.

I think there WAS a fire in his hotel room, but other than that I don't know what happened.

And how would he use his camera against the other players anyways?

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of cheating at the WSOP, what about those two kings of diamonds being shown down on the same hand? There's got to be more to that story, but I haven't heard anything other than a very brief mention of it on a few sites' day one recaps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't heard any more details on this incident either, but what would be the cheating angle here? How would you get an advantage if you knew there was an extra Kd in the deck? Doesn't seem to me there's much to be gained, and I believe the hand is declared a misdeal if the discrepancy is discovered, e.g. on the showdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

Who says it was in the deck to start? It could have been exchanged in that hand or an earlier one.

eastbay

[eLROY]

The only person who has been known to cheat successfully at a game wired for video is Annie Duke. As there are multiple cameras (one for each player's hole cards), it takes a separate sensing device to detect and amplify the magnetic variations in the neighborhood of each cable. Remember also that magnetic waves decrease in proportion to distance cubed, so she has to place the shoe with the sensing and rebroadcasting device very close to the cable. In fact, much of the recent animosity on the pro tour can be traced back to an incident several years ago when Annie attempted to place one foot directly in Daniel Negreanu's lap during a large pot. Anyway, the toe-sized sensors detect the signal as a voltage variation in a 5mm coil, amplify it, and rebroadcast it at a different wavelength which is picked up by Annie's cell phone, which then modulates the signal onto a full-strenghth citizens-band carrier, which is picked up by a privately-leased downlink at downtown Las Vegas cell tower XAPi2004-j21. This is then retransmitted in 128-bit packets using TCP through a constantly changing randomly selected IP address published by hackers on the Yahoo name server as well as several backups, where any player who wishes can subscribe to the complete remultiplexed signal with American frame-speed and SMPTE timecode for $20,000 per tournament, which explains generally the success of Howard "Video Professor" Lederer.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, much of the recent animosity on the pro tour can be traced back to an incident several years ago when Annie attempted to place one foot directly in Daniel Negreanu's lap during a large pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is why all tech-savvy pros line their shorts with aluminum foil when playing. And remember, shiny side out!!

[WDC]

If I remember right, there was at least one hand, I think involving Lederer,during last years broadcast where his whole cards were not shown. I think they had question marks.
He won the pot with a flop bet so we never did see them.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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It seems Men the Master was actually rigging his own camera at foxwoods to slip under the table by each player. Unfortunately, while testing the cameras he started a fire and could not use them. Seems he blamed the fire on an electric burner he had in the room. This plan backfired though as he was then kicked out of the hotel for failing to follow the fire code......Who knows


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I heard this rumor was completely false, and Men the Master himself went on a well known forum or maybe even Cardplayer Magazine to debunk what had happened.

I think there WAS a fire in his hotel room, but other than that I don't know what happened.

And how would he use his camera against the other players anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry, I was just kidding

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't heard any more details on this incident either, but what would be the cheating angle here? How would you get an advantage if you knew there was an extra Kd in the deck?

[/ QUOTE ]
The thing that immediately sprung to my mind when I heard about the two Kds was the possibility that somebody was holding out / switching cards.

[Daliman]

During the US poker championships(?) last year, technicians were having a HELL of a time getting Erik Seidel to Show his hole cards, and he wasn't being cooperative. THey even went to putting 2 cameras on his spot, which, he was trying to subvert by putting chips in front of them "accidentally" etc. I think, in the end, producers told him start showing or forfeit.
This was in the tourney where he was HU with Toto Leonidas.

[J.A.Sucker]

It's an interesting and noteworthy point to know when this deck was brought into play. If it were in one of the first few hands of the deck (say three or so), then it may have been a mixup. However, if it were after this time, I would bet that somebody was holding out cards.

This is markedly different than Dynasty's 4-8 experience, where it's likely that they just screwed up, since it sounds like the deck was just brought in. Just an observation from somebody who wasn't there.

[Joe Tall]

Dynasty,

Was the manufacturer of the cards the same?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[shaniac]

You might have been kidding, but.....

There was an excellent LATimes profile on Men and his posse and included in that story was the bit about Foxwoods:

Supposedly, they set a fire in their room using a cooking device, but the real reason Men was barred was because tournament chips were found in his room. Now, of course Foxwoods never stated that this was the reason, and Men has since been allowed back into Foxwoods, so who knows.

Just clarifying what the allegations were.

Shane

[Ragnar]

ROFLMAO

Ragnar

[soxfan70]

I played with a guy that was sitting next to Men at the tournament in question. What he told me was that Men had gone up to his room on a dinner break, and was cooking in the room and set off the smoke detectors. He never came back to the tourney, and the story was that he was thrown out and banned forever. the camera story sounds like it "could" be true, but why would a world class player risk that?

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
I sat in a Monte Carlo 4-8 game while waiting to go to the movies across the street (Shrek 2)

[/ QUOTE ]

...

OK I'm changing my opinion on the funniest post ever! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

So...ummm...how was the movie? Better than the 4/8 game? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Prickly Pete]

Seems like the two Kd's is an ideal cheating freeroll if you hold one and the other comes on the flop. Perhaps you get someone to bet big and you raise. If they fold, you muck and take a nice pot. If they call, it's a misdeal.

I wonder if this ever happened on that table?

[redwings03]

[ QUOTE ]
but why would a world class player risk that?

[/ QUOTE ] Well Sox fan, why would so many star athletes risk using steroids, perhaps even one of the very best Barry Bonds succumbed to the pressure to be at the top. The reason they risk it is greed, money, feeling the competition nipping at their heels, and the desire to be on top even if it means cheating to gain a competitive edge overrides their sense of fair play.

For what it's worth, there have been allegations swirling around Men and his posse for quite some time and I read that the Foxwoods incident stemmed from Tourny chips being found in his room. It always makes it interesting when a tourny ends with less or more chips than it started with and since most casinos use one set of tourny chips it could give incentive for a crew to slide some out of a $100 event and insert them to a $1000 event. I would like to think it doesn't happen, but if athletes who are truly making the big bucks are willing to cheat be certain that people with less to lose will try to gain unfair advantages.

[AviD]

42 posts...

I can't imagine the other ones...but this was classic! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
I played with a guy that was sitting next to Men at the tournament in question. What he told me was that Men had gone up to his room on a dinner break, and was cooking in the room and set off the smoke detectors. He never came back to the tourney, and the story was that he was thrown out and banned forever. the camera story sounds like it "could" be true, but why would a world class player risk that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said I was just kidding, his gang was stealing chips...... there was no camera involved

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
42 posts...

I can't imagine the other ones...but this was classic! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

eLROY is one of the all-time classic posters

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I sat in a Monte Carlo 4-8 game while waiting to go to the movies across the street (Shrek 2)

[/ QUOTE ]

...

OK I'm changing my opinion on the funniest post ever! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

So...ummm...how was the movie? Better than the 4/8 game? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Towards the end of the film, power went out in the theatre. So, the next day I was back at the Monte Carlo playing 4-8 again before seeing the film.

The film was very good but not quite as good as the original.

[trillig]

Actually at the WPT events, Mike and Vince are back about 50 ft from the action in their own little area, looking at the hole cards and commenting the whole time...

I know because I was at a taping....

They were roughly 50 feet from me and in my view the entire time...

I could not hear a word from them at all... I can't wait to see the showm and hear there comments on some WACKY hands that night.... and see if I got any face time myself. 8)

SO just bribe Mike or Vince.... LOL!

-Bri

[trillig]

HAHA Nice 1!

-Bri

[sammr]

Exactly. If you notice you have a card that hits the board, bet it up, if you get called down its free, if not then the hand is void. In fact this has been done in alot of casinos. Not to mention you have to wonder how the extra Kd found its way into the deck. Kinda hard to believe the dealer wouldnt catch it at set up.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
If you notice you have a card that hits the board, bet it up, if you get called down its free, if not then the hand is void.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very possible that your hand will be declared dead, especially if the floor believes you knew about the problem. You could cost yourself money doing this.

More importantly, you simply being dishonest. There's no need to degrade yourself in order to win money.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually at the WPT events, Mike and Vince are back about 50 ft from the action in their own little area, looking at the hole cards and commenting the whole time...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike and Vince can not see the hole cards during the taping. Any commentary about specific holdings is done in post-production.

[trillig]

I was told this by someone who works for the WPT... hmmmmm I will definitely look into this further...

Mike and Vince are sitting back there in the WPT booth doing what/whispering about what for 4+ hours then, is my next question....

Preparing to do the World Select beer speech? They took 4 takes! LOL! That might be it! hehe

-Bri

[iceblink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you notice you have a card that hits the board, bet it up, if you get called down its free, if not then the hand is void.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very possible that your hand will be declared dead, especially if the floor believes you knew about the problem. You could cost yourself money doing this.

More importantly, you simply being dishonest. There's no need to degrade yourself in order to win money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot about the very real possibility that someone could've been switching out cards. This is certainly tougher to detect, esp. if the player fires their cards into the muck, making it difficult for the dealer to verify that both cards have been relinquished. The only other counter-measure I can think of is for the dealer to count down the deck, which is too time-consuming to do very often. I suppose players could be prohibited from firing their cards into the muck, which would make it easier for the dealer to verify that both cards are being turned in.

But is it also possible that a player could switch in cards that they've brought with them, rather than a card held out from one of their previous hands? Seems like this would be fairly easy to do if they use standard KEM decks that anyone can buy. Anybody know if the WSOP decks are customized?

Dynasty, I hope you're not counting on an aversion to dishonesty and self-degradation to prevent everyone from cheating! I think increasing the chances of getting caught would be much more effective. Maybe random strip searches are the answer... ;-)

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps even one of the very best Barry Bonds succumbed to the pressure to be at the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

is there a steroid to make one's reflexes quicker? bonds is bonds because he works as hard as any athlete alive, not drugs. you are a blasphemer, sir!

cheers!

[West]

Steroids help you get bigger and stronger, which can mean more bat speed, which means you can wait longer on pitches and hit them harder when you connect. Please.

[tablerunr]

So, I guess Babe Ruth was on something? In fact he was. He was always high on hot dogs and beer. He hit more home runs in one year than 5 other teams did in aggregate. I wonder what rumors would have been back then if we had the same drug problem we do now?

Some people are much better than others and always will be.
Bonds happens to be one of them.

[redwings03]

I was not trying to spark a steroid debate, but MLB acknowledges that something in the range of 5-6% of players tested positive during anonymous testing. Note I said "perhaps even one of the best succumbed" I did not say Barry definitely did steroids but IT WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME if at some point concrete evidence comes out that's all.

My point was that even players making millions at the pro baseball level CHEAT. So if you think that players trying to eek out a living by playing poker won't cheat then you are kidding yourself!!!

End of story, no disrespect meant to Bonds at the moment but it's gonna get interesting now that BALCO's illicit activities have been found and there sure have been a lot of coincidences so far round Barry.