How tough is Party 2/4?

[StellarWind]

I live at Paradise and was wondering how Party compares. I've heards lots of subjective descriptions but nothing objective. I thought some numbers would be nice.

I'm sure some of you have substantial PokerTracker databases for Party 2/4. Could you post your average game statistics?

Average VP$IP
Average PFR
Number of hands in your sample (very important)

How to:

1. Open Ring Game Player Statistics.
2. Go to Preferences tab and check $2/$4 and no other filters.
3. Go to Summary tab and use the check box "Don't Include My Stats" (important).
4. The VP$IP and PFR totals are at the bottom of the page.

If you play shorthanded it will mess up the results. Maybe a PT whiz can tell you how to exclude that data.

Give your own PFR as well. Some of you terrorize the table a tad more than others /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. That depresses other people's VP$IP.

If you want to, feel free to post data for other sites and limits. I'm sure the audience will be curious.

[Alobar]

I'm too lazy to do all that. But I can tell you that 2/4 is incredibly easy to beat.

[BigEndian]

Ditto on the lazyness, but monkeys on mescaline could beat the Party 2/4.

- Jim

[Rico Suave]

Hey Stellarwind:

43,000 hands

average vp$ip 38.92%
ave pot $29.3
pfr% 5.20%

These stats are from the beginning of this year through april.

Hope this helps.

--Rico

[nbb]

This is only since the beginning of the month when I moved to 2-4 for a total of 36,129 hands. (I have to start doing more mescaline!) /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

PRF = 5.82
VP$IP = 31.13
Avg. Pot = 27.74

What do the Paradise stats look like?

Cheers,
NBB

[joker122]

There's been alot of talk lately about Party 2/4 is break even at best and simply unbeatable because of the terrible play. This, of course, is nonsense.

Total hands: ~18,000
Winrate: 5.4BB/100 hands
Saw flop: ~38%
VP$IP: 33.37%
PFR: 5.3%
Avg # of players: 9.23

I recently dropped back down to party 2/4 from 3/6 because 1. I was getting killed by cold cards, bad beats, and better players and 2. 2/4 is so awesome. I love it.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Total hands: ~18,000
Winrate: 5.4BB/100 hands
Saw flop: ~38%
VP$IP: 33.37%
PFR: 5.3%
Avg # of players: 9.23


[/ QUOTE ]

I hope those are the table stats with your win rate thrown in, not your stats

[joker122]

No way man, those are my stats. There's no such things as bad cards, just bad flops, Alobar.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
No way man, those are my stats. There's no such things as bad cards, just bad flops, Alobar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its late, so maybe I'm missing the sarcasm, so I'll take it at face value.

Don't get attached to the bankroll cuz its going to dissapear

[SpacePirate]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no such things as bad cards, just bad flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Interesting perspective.

-SpacePirate

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's no such things as bad cards, just bad flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Interesting perspective.

-SpacePirate

[/ QUOTE ]

Its actually true, I'd take great flops with crap cards over great cards and crap flops. Only problem is crap cards bleed off way to many chips because great flops are pretty rare.

[surfdoc]

Tough as nails, dude. Keep you and are your punk ass 2+2 buddies the hell away. Paradise is much easier. Oh wait, you said 2/4?? In that case feel free to come on over as I will be primarily at 3/6, and 5/10.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't get attached to the bankroll cuz its going to dissapear


[/ QUOTE ]

It already has. I lost over half of it at 3/6, and that's why I dropped back to 2/4.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't get attached to the bankroll cuz its going to dissapear


[/ QUOTE ]

It already has. I lost over half of it at 3/6, and that's why I dropped back to 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its going to keep doing that even at 2/4 if you keep seeing that many flops

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
There's been alot of talk lately about Party 2/4 is break even at best and simply unbeatable because of the terrible play. This, of course, is nonsense.

Total hands: ~18,000
Winrate: 5.4BB/100 hands
Saw flop: ~38%
VP$IP: 33.37%
PFR: 5.3%
Avg # of players: 9.23

[/ QUOTE ]I know you love that giant rush you've been on, but if you see that many flops you're paying about $5 every orbit for cards you shouldn't be.

3-5% of the time, you'll flop 2p or better with them and collect a big pot (if you're lucky- but say 10 BB) for 50% of that money back.

The other half, you'll be calling A7o or K3s up front, it'll be raised behind you, you'll hit top pair and wind up calling down AK.

18 thousand more hands of this and you'll be more broke than half the people on my buddy list (who are there because they see 35% of flops.)

[joker122]

Those are the collective 2/4 stats, which the poster requested. I also inlcuded my winrate because I saw another poster do so. I thought the sarcasm in my other post was apparent. I guess not. Geez...580 posts and still no respect.

[Alobar]

hey, I warned you I was tired! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ponks]

I admit I was a little confused too :P

[twolf]

I have yet to find opponents like the 2/4 Party opponents.

[PraetorianAZ]

I know it's nonsense and 2/4 is beatable, but haven't figured out how. For every hand that wins, I'm bluffed off one hand, and outdrawn on the next. I make them pay lots of bets early but get killed on the expensive streets. Breaking even.

There is a breed of tricky player at 2/4 who plays the players. Yesterday my EP raise is folded to the SB who 3-bets with 83o. He knows that 2/3 of the time the PF raiser has overcards that will miss the flop. So when he misses with his 83o and no A, K or Q flops, he represents whatever the board shows (paired, flush, or whatever) and starts bluffing. His play is +EV against a tight player who will fold. Bluffing is rampant at 2/4 with turn raises on scare cards, traps, and lots of tricky play.

The other type of player limps with everything and lets you lead the betting and pops you on the river. (Sometimes they'll even simulate this play and pop you with nothing.)

I've found that raising pre-flop basically tells them what you have. They know that if you play past the flop you have a PP, a draw or the A or K that's on the flop. They play accordingly so they see the turn and only continue if they hit 2-pair or better.

That's been my experience. Throw in a bunch of fish and the schooling effect and it's been a breakeven game. It feels like playing against a bunch of ferrets.

[Fnord]

Against that crew pre-flop raise more, call more, bluff less. Make them show you hands.

I just grabbed a bunch of money off a player like this this morning.

I get a free ride in with J9o in my BB with the SB and a limper. Flop is 9 9 rag, rainbow. The limper and I cap the flop. Then I bet into him after a blank turn, he raises it, I shift into check+call mode. King comes up on the river and he bets out, I call, he shows AKo.

[PokerBob]

38% of flops seems a bit ( /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) high to me. Over a 500 hand session, I usually average seeing about 15-19% of the flops.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I know it's nonsense and 2/4 is beatable, but haven't figured out how. For every hand that wins, I'm bluffed off one hand, and outdrawn on the next. I make them pay lots of bets early but get killed on the expensive streets. Breaking even.

There is a breed of tricky player at 2/4 who plays the players. Yesterday my EP raise is folded to the SB who 3-bets with 83o. He knows that 2/3 of the time the PF raiser has overcards that will miss the flop. So when he misses with his 83o and no A, K or Q flops, he represents whatever the board shows (paired, flush, or whatever) and starts bluffing. His play is +EV against a tight player who will fold. Bluffing is rampant at 2/4 with turn raises on scare cards, traps, and lots of tricky play.

The other type of player limps with everything and lets you lead the betting and pops you on the river. (Sometimes they'll even simulate this play and pop you with nothing.)

I've found that raising pre-flop basically tells them what you have. They know that if you play past the flop you have a PP, a draw or the A or K that's on the flop. They play accordingly so they see the turn and only continue if they hit 2-pair or better.

That's been my experience. Throw in a bunch of fish and the schooling effect and it's been a breakeven game. It feels like playing against a bunch of ferrets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't make them pay so much up front. Make them pay on the expensive streets(ie the turn), that's one small piece of advice I can give

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a breed of tricky player at 2/4 who plays the players....It feels like playing against a bunch of ferrets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are experiencing a blind men and elephant type illusion here. You've got hold of one particular part of the elephant (I won't say which) and you think you've got a good idea what an elephant looks like.

Any description of the overall style of a particular site/level is essentially a statistical description. Your particular sample is skewed because you've been exposed to a big smear of anomalous data. I had the same thing happen to me at 5/10 short-handed.

It is essential in all things poker to take the longer view - in this case a "wider" view which you can get by factoring in the reports of the other blind men here. (This type of collective intelligence is one of the awesome things about this site.)

You might also have gotten spooked a few times by tricky players and are doing some mis-interpretation of other situations because of it.

Try this exercise - load up your last session into Poker Tracker and play back a bunch of hands with known hole cards exposed.... Oh. My. God. OMFG. You have just seen your opponents naked and you will never, ever fear them again.

In general, I like to approach all my opponents with a healthy respect. But sometimes you need to be able to privately enjoy a sense of superiority, contempt, and even pity. Because it can be good for your game.

Like in Swingers, you're asking yourself "how am I going to kill the little bunny" and you've got these great big [censored] claws...

(This pep talk is for me as much as you, btw.)

/mc

[tripdad]

no p/t stats in front of me....i'm at work. i played party 2/4 for 3 months (about 10,000 or so hands). my win rate was 4-5 bb/100 hands. i moved more to n/l tourneys and n/l rings to improve that part of my game. i found some success there after awhile. i then went to another site for a good bonus and played 3/6 short handed. my win rate is still the same, only it's more $$$ because of higher limit and more hands/hr. i'm still there.

interestingly, i reffered a friend to party and he played 1/2, so i joined him for several sessions. my stats say that 1/2 was tighter than 2/4, so i told him to move to 2/4. lo and behold, 2/4 had gotten tighter too. i lost a bit, so moved back to 3/6 short and haven't been back since.

38% vpip seems way high. i remember more like 29-30% at 2/4 and 26-28% at 1/2.

cheers!

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
... moved back to 3/6 short and haven't been back since.

[/ QUOTE ]

3/6 short? Is there such a thing? In fact, why do only certain levels have short-handed?

/mc

[ddubois]

Alot of times I feel like I win small pots and lose big ones. If my AK flops an ace, I only win a little, maybe one guy calls down the whole way if I'm lucky. But if my opponent hits two pair with his A7, I end up giving him at least 3sb on the flop and 3bb on the big streets. So I need to have AK 3 times and have it hold up for every time I have AK and get sucked out on with an inferior hand.

Anyway, that's the feeling. It's probably an illusion, and I have no proof that this is the reality. I'm sure alot of my losses are of my own design, due to inappropriately loose pre-flop play or whatever.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
38% of flops seems a bit ( ) high to me. Over a 500 hand session, I usually average seeing about 15-19% of the flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 38% refers to the average # of players taking the flop at a 2/4 table.

[rkaufman]

I like your style, dude.

Rob

[StellarWind]

Thanks to all who posted their numbers. My Paradise statistics are not a large sample:

Hands: 3487
VP$IP: 33.95
PFR: 5.88
Avg. Pot: $26.52
Avg players at table: 8.76

It should be noted that the Paradise lobby provides "see flop %" for every table. I move often to be at the best table. This inflates the VP$IP of my opponents compared to what I would see if I just sat someplace and never moved.

[Kevin]

I used to play at Paradise and moved to Party because the games are good and, more importantly, if you need to move (because you are getting ran down, overcards aren't hitting, draws that you push aren't getting there, and you start getting 4 cold calls with rags - the schooling effect rearing its ugly head), you can get seated into another game almost instantaneously.

I have about 25,000 2/4 hands. The VPIP is 36%, average pot is just under $30. My win rate is 4.10/100 for 2/4 and only a tad over 2 for 3/6. The variance on 3/6 seems big to me because the aggression preflop is big and you will pay for your drawing hands - while in 2/4 you can get in cheap on drawing hands, small pairs and get paid off handsomely later streets. You will find out who to watch out for in a hurry and export the PT notes (and adjust accordingly). Otherwise, value bet on the end, watch out for CR's on turn from fishy players with obvious flush draws/straight draws on the board, and it is akin to printing money. 3 tables and you can make about $30 per hour without a lot of thought or trouble.

Good luck,
Kevin