Test for the NL/PL Forum! Take your shot and earn $150!! [Archive]

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MrFroggyX

05-27-2004, 10:05 AM

Ok guys and gals!

I’m going to post a hand here that I played on party today. Your job is to figure out my two opponents, Min Preflop Bettor & Calling Station, both hole cards.

Terms and conditions apply. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
1. I will pay the first person that states both opponents hole cards with right suits $150.
2. If no one manages to figure it out I will pay $75 to the first person that states both opponents’ hole cards without right suits.
3. And if no one manages to do that I will pay $20 to the first person that states one off my opponents both hole cards. And I will also pay $20 to the second person that states my other opponents both hole cards. Suit's not important.
4. Only one vote per forum poster.
5. Only posters with 5 or more post are eligible for this contest.
6. If you where involved in the hand or was seated at the table you are not eligible for this contest.
7. I will pay you to your neteller account or interaccount transfer on any major poker site.
8. 2+2 or any off its sub affiliates are not in anyway related or sponsor this contest.
9. This contest will end on May 30. 01:00 PM EST. (or 07:00 PM/19:00 GMT+1) any votes after that time considered void and is disqualified.
10. I will post the result shortly after and the hand history number so you can check that I don't cheat with the result. Any winners will be paid as soon as possible.

Good Luck!

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MrFroggyX ($54.45)
Button ($50.05)
SB ($34.60)
BB ($53)
UTG ($45.85)
UTG+1 (Min Preflop Bettor) ($71.65)
MP1 ($56.95)
MP2 ($31.50)
MP3 (Calling Station) ($56.10)

Preflop: MrFroggyX is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 (Min Preflop Bettor) raises to $2, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 (Calling Station) calls $2, MrFroggyX raises to $8, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 (Min Preflop Bettor) calls $6, MP3 (Calling Station) calls $6.

Flop: ($25.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players) 
Min Preflop Bettor bets $20, Calling Station calls $20, MrFroggyX folds.

Turn: ($65.50) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players) 
Min Preflop Bettor checks, Calling Station checks.

River: ($65.50) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players) 
Min Preflop Bettor bets $43.65 (All-In), Calling Station calls $28.10 (All-In).

Final Pot: $137.25
Main Pot: $121.70, between Min Preflop Bettor and Calling Station.
Pot 2: $15.55, overbet by Min Preflop Bettor.

bouh

05-27-2004, 10:20 AM

I say JJ for the min bet raiser and 34 heart for the calling station

Roman

05-27-2004, 10:21 AM

Ac 8s min better
4d 3d for call station

hebe151

05-27-2004, 10:27 AM

I would say 9h 9c for min raiser and Ah 8d for calling station...hope i am right

nolefan21

05-27-2004, 10:36 AM

Min Preflop Better - A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif
Calling Station - K /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

MrFroggyX

05-27-2004, 10:38 AM

I forgot to tell that I haven't got any reads/notes or poker tracker stats on any off my two opponents. Have been seated at the table around 10 min.

And once more: Good Luck!

LA_Price

05-27-2004, 10:47 AM

min preflop better K /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif
calling station 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Always Rockets

05-27-2004, 11:11 AM

Min pre-flop bettor- K /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Calling Station- A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Atropos

05-27-2004, 11:11 AM

Min Preflop Better: Ts 8s
Calling Station: 3h 3d

sniperd

05-27-2004, 11:18 AM

Min Preflop Raiser, station, A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif And Calling Station Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
At least I think it would make for an interesting hand! I think there would be a chance the hands could be reversed too, but I am going with my first guess on this one.

josie_wales

05-27-2004, 11:30 AM

Hey Frog,

A /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif
and
3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Garbonzo

05-27-2004, 11:53 AM

Min preflop bettor - 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Calling Station A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

(not bloody likely)

namknils

05-27-2004, 12:55 PM

My guess /images/graemlins/smile.gif:

Min Preflop Bettor = K /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif
Calling Station = K /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Runner Runner

05-27-2004, 01:00 PM

Min - Ace /images/graemlins/heart.gif King /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Calling station - 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

iash

05-27-2004, 01:20 PM

Doh, Josie took my answer. Well i'll modify mine slightly then...

min - K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif

calling - 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

PokerSlut

05-27-2004, 01:30 PM

Preflop Bettor has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Calling Station has Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

The Bear

05-27-2004, 01:39 PM

I think everyone's on the wrong track. Frog would never do this if their hands made any sort of sense. That's too easy.

I'll make a couple of appropriately absurd guesses.

Min Preflop Better: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (I really wanted to guess black deuces, but I'll stick with this)

Calling Station: J /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Those are GOLD. My NeTeller account # is 452115267397. You can send the cash any time before the end of the weekend.

The Bear

Edit: I changed the 5 of clubs to the 9 of clubs. Mistype.

Phishy McFish

05-27-2004, 01:42 PM

Ac3c Min bettor
8c9c Calling station

SHOW ME THE MONEY....and the flush draws

Prevaricator

05-27-2004, 01:42 PM

min raiser K /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif
calling station J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

edit: someone else guessed black kings already so i gotta change it a little ;o

Wayfare

05-27-2004, 01:48 PM

Min better: K /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif
Calling Station: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Phishy McFish

05-27-2004, 01:50 PM

EXACTLY.....I placed my "what are some of the weirdest hands they could have?" guess. I should have thought about 22 vs. 22....THAT may be golden.

Huskiez

05-27-2004, 02:10 PM

I think for sure Min Preflop Bettor has either JTs or T9s. Calling station is a bit harder, probably an overpair on the flop.

I'll say:

Min Preflop Bettor: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Calling station: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif

TheGrifter

05-27-2004, 02:10 PM

min = 9s 9h

Call = 8c 3c

jmark

05-27-2004, 02:32 PM

I bet they both have the same hand,

MPFB: J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif
CS: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

unofficially I think they have:
MPFB: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif
CS: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Philuva

05-27-2004, 02:37 PM

Min = 2h 3h
Calling Station = 4h 5h

deacsoft

05-27-2004, 02:49 PM

A /images/graemlins/heart.gif-T /images/graemlins/club.gif for min preflop bettor
4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif-4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for call station

MrFroggyX, I like your icon /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Justin A

05-27-2004, 03:09 PM

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif for min preflop bettor.
3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif for calling station.

Justin A

05-27-2004, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I bet they both have the same hand,

MPFB: J /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif
CS: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This must be a weird deck. Two jacks of spades AND clubs!

respectfully,
Justin A

tdomeski

05-27-2004, 03:25 PM

Min pre flop bettor: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Calling station: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

MVicuna

05-27-2004, 03:34 PM

Hi

Min bettor, A5 of hearts. Calling station Qd 3d. Just because this has to be absurd.

If I was really thinking about it beacuse I was in the hand.

Ah As for the min bettor and K4h for the calling station, but I might have these reversered.

MarkV.

dmk

05-27-2004, 04:22 PM

min-raiser: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif
call-station: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SaintAces

05-27-2004, 04:55 PM

Ship it /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Sundevils21

05-27-2004, 05:19 PM

MinPreflopbettor:Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Calling station: A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif

adanthar

05-27-2004, 10:30 PM

Since this is Party...

Minraiser: A /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Call stat: 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

jdoe

05-28-2004, 01:19 AM

MIN 3h 3d
c. station 8s Tc

nixma

05-28-2004, 01:22 AM

J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif for min raiser
8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif for calling station

RPatterson

05-28-2004, 01:26 AM

Minumum raise has King of spades and King of clubs.

Calling station has 4 of hearts and three of hearts.

Barry_G

05-28-2004, 07:53 PM

Preflop bettor A4h
Calling Station KsQd

kurtcobain

05-28-2004, 10:35 PM

min raiser: A hearts, Ten clubs
calling station: 34 hearts

MrFroggyX

05-30-2004, 06:59 PM

Ok guys and gals! Here comes the end of this small contest!

First am going to tell you my reasons to make this contest:
It is to show you the power of disguise and concealment off your hands in NL. And instead of making a post about it I thought it would be much more fun if you had to think about it first. And also it might be easier for you to understand what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, first I will show you the hands:

Min Preflop Bettor 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Calling Station 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

And the hand history number is: 629213196 so you can check for yourself if you don't believe me.
And beacuse no one managed to guess right. Not even without the right suits, there are no winners. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Anyway now am going to analyze the hands and also try to tell you want I meant with "power of disguise and concealment".

First we are going to check out Calling Station and his play. It's very simple and we are not going to discuss it much. The interesting player is the Min Preflop Bettor. But first we check out the calling station.

Here is the hand again: (My comments in blue)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MrFroggyX ($54.45)
Button ($50.05)
SB ($34.60)
BB ($53)
UTG ($45.85)
UTG+1 (Min Preflop Bettor) ($71.65)
MP1 ($56.95)
MP2 ($31.50)
MP3 (Calling Station) Remember his hand is 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif ($56.10)

Preflop: MrFroggyX is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 (Min Preflop Bettor) raises to $2, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 (Calling Station) calls $2 Here he calls a min raise with Q 10s, it's ok. I would not have done that. But that’s me. , MrFroggyX raises to $8, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 (Min Preflop Bettor) calls $6, MP3 (Calling Station) calls $6.Here he calls the second raise with Q 10s, that I think is a mistake. What do you people say? He gets 3:1 on his money but he can't be happy if he flops anything less than two pairs.

Flop: ($25.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players) 
Min Preflop Bettor bets $20, Calling Station calls $20, Here he only calls!? As I see it he think he leads or are way behind. Call is the worst thing he can do. And especially when he got a pre-flop raiser after him. MrFroggyX folds.

Turn: ($65.50) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players) 
Min Preflop Bettor checks, Calling Station checks. And what happens on the turn. The min Preflop better literally surrender the pot to him. Here he must go all in. If he has come this far with the pot he must take a stance here. He can't check! 

River: ($65.50) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players) 
Min Preflop Bettor bets $43.65 (All-In), Calling Station calls $28.10 (All-In). Here he doesn’t have so much choice than to call. I mean the 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif can't have helped the min preflop bettor and if he was in the lead on the flop he probably are still in the lead.

Final Pot: $137.25
Main Pot: $121.70, between Min Preflop Bettor and Calling Station. > Pot won by Calling Station ($121.70).
Pot 2: $15.55, overbet by Min Preflop Bettor.

Results in white below: 
Min Preflop Bettor shows 7d 9h (high card, king).
Calling Station shows Ts Qs (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Calling Station wins $121.70. Min Preflop Bettor wins $15.55. 

So the analyze off the calling station is that he is a real fish!

He calls on pre-flop twice.
He calls on the flop. When he doesn’t have any draws or anything. Only top pair with a pretty bad kicker.
After his opponents surrender the pot on the turn. He checks!??
On the river I think he had to call it when he had went so far with his hand. So it was an ok call.

He is a passive and lose fish. The perfect opponent!

Now we come to the interesting and the reason I posted this contest.
And that is to try to learn out the "power off disguise and concealment".

Here is the hand again: (My comments in blue)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MrFroggyX ($54.45)
Button ($50.05)
SB ($34.60)
BB ($53)
UTG ($45.85)
UTG+1 (Min Preflop Bettor) Remember his hand is 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif ($71.65)
MP1 ($56.95)
MP2 ($31.50)
MP3 (Calling Station) ($56.10)

Preflop: MrFroggyX is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 (Min Preflop Bettor) raises to $2, Here he raises with 79o UTG+1 in a 9 handed game. As you understand this is not the correct to play 79o /images/graemlins/wink.gif But we understand that he is trying to make a move and outplay his opponents. Well see how it goes. MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 (Calling Station) calls $2, MrFroggyX raises to $8, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 (Min Preflop Bettor) calls $6, Here he is faced with a big re-raise. I guess he didn’t plan on this but he calls it because if he hits the flop hard he could take my stack, after all he probably is sure what I have for hand. A big pocketpair. MP3 (Calling Station) calls $6.

Flop: ($25.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players) 
Min Preflop Bettor bets $20, And the flop gives him an open-ended straight draw. Not the best possible but still good. Here he tries to take a stab at the pot. Anyway he bets out. I think it's good. Always better to go right ahead and bet out at the original raiser. Put the man to the test. Calling Station calls $20, MrFroggyX folds.

Turn: ($65.50) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players) 
Min Preflop Bettor checks, now the calling station called him. He knows that he is beaten at this point. But he can get his straight at the river and still win the pot. Calling Station checks.

River: ($65.50) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players) 
Min Preflop Bettor bets $43.65 (All-In), now after the calling station checks after him on the turn and the river is a blank. What can he do? Well off course he tries to bluff it, I mean it is his only shot to take the pot home. But his opponents calls. Calling Station calls $28.10 (All-In).

Final Pot: $137.25
Main Pot: $121.70, between Min Preflop Bettor and Calling Station. > Pot won by Calling Station ($121.70).
Pot 2: $15.55, overbet by Min Preflop Bettor.

Results in white below: 
Min Preflop Bettor shows 7d 9h (high card, king).
Calling Station shows Ts Qs (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Calling Station wins $121.70. Min Preflop Bettor wins $15.55. 

I think the min Preflop bettor played ok. But he made a few mistakes that cost him his stack:

1. He calls my re-raise pre flop. He tried to make a move. He got re-raised. Get rid off this hand and move on.
2. He tried to make a move on a bad player. NEVER make a move on a bad player! Get a hand and bet hard. That’s the way you win $. Not by bluffing.
3. He min bet. Bet the usually preflop raise or don't bet at all if you are trying to make a move.

Now what are you saying, he lost his stack! Do you want us to start raise 79o UTG!? You are mad!

But as you can see I think he made a mistake by calling my re-raise and also by making a move on the "poor" player.
But lets say things where different.

Imagine that you raise 79o or even better 79s UTG with your normal Preflop raise (3-4xBB). You got 2 callers. The flop comes 568 or 79Q or 77A or 992. Do you think that anyone is going to guess that you have 79 in your hand! No! they are not going to guess that! (As you can see for yourself over 30 people voted and no one managed tell me that he had 79) They are going to guess you have AK or AQ or AA-1010. And you can possible win a big pot if they hit something themselves on the flop!

That’s the "power off disuse and concealment"!
And you can also se it like this. For 4xBB or whatever your standard Preflop raise is, you can disguise your hand! It's very powerful. Your opponents will never know what you have.

And it also will give you some other great benefits:
1. You will get more action on your "real" hands or
2. People will start to get afraid off you and you can steal lots off pots.

I usually play very solid and tight. But sometimes I have started to try some of these things out. And it's have been very successful.

But I think the best why you can use this is when it's folded to you on the button or CO. Then you can raise with any hand. It doesn’t matter! (This is a well know concept... called "steal the blinds" /images/graemlins/cool.gif but I thought I would describe it here.. because if you raise with a mediocre hand UTG or MP you should play it about the same as when you steal the blinds)

You have three ways off wining:

1. The blinds fold and you win the blinds. That’s good.
2. One off the blinds call and you hit a flop hard and win a big pot. That’s good.
3. One off the blinds call and you see the flop. The blind checks and you bet the pot or half the pot. The blinds fold. That’s good.

And the worst thing that can happens is this:

1. You get re-raised pre-flop. Dump the hand. You tried to make a move. It didn’t work out. You lost 4xBB. Nothing to worry about.
2. The blind calls. Then on the flop the blind checks. You bet. You get re-raised or he calls. Well then you don’t put any more money into the pot! He has hit something and he is way ahead. Think about the pot as a lost one! You have lost around 12xBB. Nothing to worry about.
But there is one exception to the "don't put anymore money into the pot".. That is if you are sure the blind is on a draw. Then you should continue to bluff at the turn and river if he doesn’t hit the draw. But that’s the only exception to "don't put anymore money into the pot". Only if you are sure he is on draw! Never else. I think it's -EV to continue to bluff if he has called my flop bet. At least online at party poker.

That’s it! I hope I have made some off you people to think about your play and try to be a little more imaginative and not always play ABC poker.. To start to try some things out, and grow as a poker player!

Please let me know if you think am completely out in the bushes with this. I don’t want to try to learn something to the 2+2 that is stupid! But at least for me it works very well! And also it's much much much more fun to play like this!

Good luck and please give me comments if you think am wrong!

MrFroggyX

05-30-2004, 07:13 PM

I'll make a couple of appropriately absurd guesses.
Min Preflop Better: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (I really wanted to guess black deuces, but I'll stick with this)

The Bear was really close to getting the min Preflop raiser right! He guessed 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and the correct answer was 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif... Good try!

RollaJ

06-02-2004, 02:54 PM

Hey, can you go over the part where you explain folding a big overpair on the flop with a backdoor flush draw and straight draw to a less than pot size bet..... especially on Party. That was horrible /images/graemlins/shocked.gif.

oneeye13

06-02-2004, 03:50 PM

yeah, what did you put these guys on during the hand?

Rickfish

06-02-2004, 04:19 PM

I was waiting for the clever explanation about how you successfully put your opponents on monster hands and brilliantly folded your QQ. If you fold QQ in this position you are over-thinking the situation. I'd be moving all in on the flop.

MrFroggyX

06-05-2004, 12:00 PM

yeah, what did you put these guys on during the hand?

I put the min Preflop raiser on a PP for a set or AA or KK and I put the calling station on a draw or possible also on a set.

And my reason for folding was this:

1: If I was going to play the hand I was going all-in. Call would be the worst thing I could do. Fold or re-raise all-in was my options. And I choose to fold. What really made me confused was the min pre flop raiser..

2: I don't like to back up a pair with my hole stack in a multihanded pot.

If the min Preflop raiser had been in the pot without the calling station I would never have folded. Or the opposite.
But the hand didn’t "feel" right at the moment. As it turned out I did a mistake. But that was not why I posted this hand. And why I didn't write what I thought about the hand.

Non_Comformist

06-05-2004, 03:15 PM

I don't know I think you could get away with possibly just call on the flop. Its 20 to you with 65 in the pot. You have an overpair and the two back door draws. I think on the flop you have 17 cards which improve you to a draw or a set assuming you are up against a set or OP (9 hearts + 3 9's, 3,J's, 3 K's + 2 Q's) you will improve to a set or a draw 36% of the time. If you do you improve on the river about 35%. So 10% of the time you will improve by the river. This doesn't even take into account the possibility that your hand is good which you would have to think is atleast 25% if not higher. Thus, I think at the very least you can call there and see what happens on the turn. As it happens the K falls, if it is checked, you can either check or bet all in.

Or you could just go all in on the flop.