Didn't like the way I played it

[34TheTruth34]

Here's a hand that a friend and I discussed ad nauseum on the ride home from the casino. I'm sure I played this hand badly, but I'm not exactly sure how. My friend (a solid, but too tight winning player) watched me play it and we disagreed on the turn and river play.

It's a 10/20 game at Foxwoods that has gone from tight to pretty good as some of the solid players have been replaced by loose-passive calling station types.

My friend walks up and I tell him, loud enough for the whole table to hear, "since you're here, I'm raising this hand no matter what I have". I don't know if anyone heard it and I don't know if I really intended to or not.

It's folded around to the button who open-limps. This is not unusual for this player, as he liked to play every hand to at least the turn. He is a loose-passive player who has been calling his money away for a couple of hours. I am in the SB, look down to see JJ and raise.

The BB calls. He has only been in the game for an orbit or two, but has played a lot of hands. Hasn't shown anything down yet, so I don't know what he's in there on. He doesn't seem to solid, but can't tell just yet. Of course, the button calls the raise and we see the flop three-handed.

Flop K-T-3 rainbow.

I bet and ---SURPRISE, SURPRISE--- they both call.

Turn 3

I decide to check and it gets checked around.

River 5

I figure my hand is good and bet. I get raised by the BB. Button folds and I call.

What do you put the BB on? How often will my hand be good? Do you play any streets differently? Thanks for reading.

[bobgreen]

You know, when you need your sperm count checked, they give you a playboy cause you're in the wrong place for what you need to do and a picture helps you imagine you are in the right place. When you are first to act and the board contains an overcard and two guys called your flop bet you need to picture T9 and 55 in your opponnents hands so you can do what you need to do(bet the turn).

If a third guy had called your flop bet, it would be like having him with me in the doctors bathroom: no amount of pictures could make me perform.

On the river, if no one has raised you, you are the most manly. Bet again.
What a life, huh?

[Clarkmeister]

That's a quality post for #100. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PassiveCaller]

I was going to say bet the turn! but that did the job and some ;-)

[bicyclekick]

I fire the turn and if they both call I just might check/call the river. Really player dependant, though.

[The Bear]

I'd bet the turn 100% of the time against the described opponents. I'm not sure what exactly to put the BB on, but I don't think 7.5-1 is enough to call w/ second pair. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that he has 55.


Edit: Additional info. If both called on the turn, I would bet the river and fold to a raise. I would never, ever, ever check-call the river after betting the turn. That's just bad poker.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]

I would never, ever, ever check-call the river after betting the turn. That's just bad poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

huh? are you kidding??

[34TheTruth34]

amazing.

[TXTiger]

I would bet the turn 100% of the time. River is more tricky if they both call the turn. Because the flop is king high, not ace high, I would bet the river almost everytime. Not sure if others play this the same way, but I see lots of people playing small aces passively. I think you get raised before the river if someone has a king. A ten will call your value bet. In the given hand I call the raise and expect to lose most of the time.

[TXTiger]

"I would never, ever, ever check-call the river after betting the turn. That's just bad poker. "

You would be losing a lot of money against certain aggresive opponents. I love to check the river when I know that the reckless players draw did not get there. What are they going to call you with? The bluffing frequency of some of these online maniacs is incredible.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I would never, ever, ever check-call the river after betting the turn. That's just bad poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

huh? are you kidding??

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead serious. There's only one missed draw and that's exactly QJ. Your described opponents are not the type to bluff the river. Check-calling is obviously bad.

[PittRounder]

Against these types of players, you must bet the turn, or prepare to leave lots of bets on the table. Value betting is key here, and without a raise from either player I'm betting every street and expecting to get called by second or third pair.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the turn 100% of the time. River is more tricky if they both call the turn. Because the flop is king high, not ace high, I would bet the river almost everytime. Not sure if others play this the same way, but I see lots of people playing small aces passively. I think you get raised before the river if someone has a king. A ten will call your value bet. In the given hand I call the raise and expect to lose most of the time

[/ QUOTE ]


This is exactly what I was thinking. I was mad at myself for not betting the turn on the way home. You think I should call the raise? I don't know if I like that idea or not.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
Dead serious. There's only one missed draw and that's exactly QJ. Your described opponents are not the type to bluff the river. Check-calling is obviously bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I thought you were saying that you never ever, under any conditions, bet the turn and check-call on the river because it's bad poker. I realize now that you were talking specifically about this hand (although that wasn't obvious from the way you responded). Obviously, there are many situations in poker where you've bet the flop and turn and should check-call on the river.



[ QUOTE ]
Your described opponents are not the type to bluff the river

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe not, but they are the type to call down with A LOT less than top pair or trips here. There's no reason to think that one of them couldn't be betting a ten here thinking it's good. They were not sophisticated opponents to say the least. But maybe one of them was capable of firing a bet on the river just to see what happens. So, I guess I don't agree that if I check the river that I should fold to a bet.

[34TheTruth34]

I thought this hand was simple, but interesting. It's safe to say that at 10/20, the bad players almost always seem to be too loose and way too aggressive, and this time they were too loose and too passive, which can make it tough to put people on a hand.

My first thought is that I should have bet the turn. I don't know why I didn't given the description of the opponents. These players will call with a lot of worse hands, but they figure to bet if they have a king or a three, so I might as well do the betting myself. I can always fold if I get raised.

On the river, I liked the river bet, but I'm not sure if I should call the raise or not. I really, really, really didn't like calling it. My friend, on the other hand, hated the river bet. However, he felt that calling the raise was virtually automatic. Interesting that two winning players feel totally opposite about the way the hand should be played.

Basically, I bet the river because I thought that since the turn was checked around nobody had a king or a three and my hand was probably good. I know I would get called by either player if they had a ten. And considering the way the hand was played to that point, it sure looked like that's what at least one of them had. I called the river raise because I thought there was a reasonable chance that it was a move (although the player was not a strong one, it should still be obvious to him that I don't have a king). And also because I wanted to see his hand. I figure he'd have 55 here about 50-60% of the time given his playing style and the way the hand played out. Had the button cold-called the two bets, I would have folded.

So I called the raise and he showed 53o for a rivered full house. I think he played the hand horribly on every street except the river, but got the most out of it the way he played it.

Thanks for taking the time to read and/or respond.