Not Losing To a Fish

[zeero3]

Please read the below hand and then I'll explain. Keep in mind I am playing against a huge fish! The turn is the part I would like people to pay attention to. This hand is just an example of a point I am trying to make about not losing to a fish and committing yourself. I know I will hear the same thing about EV and the like, but I had to say my feeling on fish. I don't play people I KNOW are fish like the rest. I was pretty sure this fish was on a flush draw. I was about to bet 15 on the turn when I thought to myself: "I know this fish will call almost anything (I've seen him). Do I want to bet that much and lose to a fish. I know that my hand isn't THAT strong, yet I don't want this fish to call my big bet w/ his draw and hit. (Yeah yeah "if you're know you're ahead then bet") I would much rather hear opinions on playing fish or just those who have very low standards on calling.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($41.35)
Hero ($42.95)
Button ($23.50)
SB ($24.75)
BB ($22.50)
UTG ($23.60)
UTG+1 ($24.50)
MP1 ($23.50)
MP2 ($22.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50, UTG+1 calls $1.50, MP3 calls $1.50.

Flop: ($8.75) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls $5.

Turn: ($18.75) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($18.75) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $18.75
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: $18.75, between MP3 and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero ($18.75).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP3 shows Kd 6d (high card, king).
Hero shows Qs Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $18.75. </font>

[AdamL]

If you knew he was on a flush draw and the last diamond comes, you just check/fold. It sounds like you are afraid of the swings. You want steady crumbs rather than big chunks one way or the other. It's that psychology that should be questioned, it all comes down to why you play. If you want to maximize your profit in the long term, you are playing it wrong. If you just want a small but steady poker income, and for one reason or another swings really bother you, well, you'll just have to play passively like that and settle for less money in the long term.

[TAFKAn]

All this talk about "losing to a fish". You are the one who raised less than the size of the meager pot with QQ in position. He is the one who saw a flop with a hand that can bust big pairs. For a mere $1.50 he took a shot at your $42 stack and you gave him a free card once he picked up some outs.

How do you know he is a "fish"?

If you really knew he was on a flush draw and would call any bet on the turn, then you should have moved your whole stack in there and prayed for a call.

To say you knew the situation and CHOSE to check means
you have a lot to learn about playing no limit. Poker in general for that matter.

TAFKAn

[Ulysses]

If you're sure he's on a flush draw and will call any bet, how can you not push on the turn? I agree, there's definitely some fishy play here.

[zeero3]

You are right I did keep this pot low. Too low. However, I would never give him a shot at my stack because if he bet big I was outta there quick.

As to how do I know he's a fish, (just call ME a fish next time instead of putting it in quotes) I saw him for over an hour make obviously wrong calls (calling an all-in w/ 2 pair and 4 flush on board after the TURN w/ 4 players). He also chased countless pots. His money came from AA by the way. The problem w/ me pushing for a call is that (1) I do not have that much faith in QQ when the FISH was playing any two cards in the deck and (2) Yes I am afraid of the bad beat. I just can't risk my whole stack on that hand.

My point was commitment to this pot. I was considering betting 15 on the turn. I just did not want to commit. The reason for this post was that can fish get in the way of what is usually a good EV call because of the chance they may be holding ANYTHING.

Thank you for the post though. Not saying that I am perfect at no limit, but I DO choose to keep the pot smaller until I feel the guy is truly beat. Yeah I really thought this guy was on a flush draw, but there was also the chance that he could be holding a crappy two pair.

[zeero3]

You hit the nail on the head there. I am in fact afraid of the swings. I have been playing more passively until the turn or all-in with QQ, KK, AA. I did play these queens differently though, I know that and I started off wrong from the beginning, but I did not want to be in a position where I HAD to call for chump-change if he hit his hand. That was my fear and reason for this post. Although I do not mind a big chunk. Because I wanted to bet, yet I felt this guy to my right could hold anything. Thanks for the post.

[Sharingan]

there's definitely some fishy play here.

You're correct, but not the initial fish.

You should for one bet more preflop. You had 4 callers, which usual turns out to be bad for you. Raise to $5. On the flop you bet so small, I'd think it was some kind of test bet. I would call even with middle pair and hope to get a second one. Calling for a flushdraw was no mistake at all. You should have bet way more preflop, on the flop, on the turn and on the RIVER.
You could have won much more. No wonder people cry when they get outdrawn.

[Sharingan]

I just can't risk my whole stack on that hand.

My point was commitment to this pot. I was considering betting 15 on the turn. I just did not want to commit. The reason for this post was that can fish get in the way of what is usually a good EV call because of the chance they may be holding ANYTHING.

Your way of thinking is completly wrong. If you do not want to risk your whole stack you should play limit. That's what makes NL HE so great. YOu can put all your chips in when you want. If you do not want to maximize your profit with a good hand, you're making a big mistake. You can't be afraid against possible hands that could beat you. If you had raised more preflop, they would not call with trash. Even if they call with trash, you've more odds to take down the pot.
The great NL HE players are great because they have the balls to play.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
As to how do I know he's a fish, (just call ME a fish next time instead of putting it in quotes) I saw him for over an hour make obviously wrong calls (calling an all-in w/ 2 pair and 4 flush on board after the TURN w/ 4 players). He also chased countless pots.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not going to call you a fish like everyone else has, and you have labeled this person. But I will say, the above paragraph contains the clue to winning at poker, especially at big bet. This is some fundamental theorem of poker type stuff.

But, I've been there, and I know how it is. I remember years ago when I started playing 7stud in the casino, I remember checking my two pair hands to the river because they're all just going to draw to their flushes anyway, so why give them my money. Obviously, this is incorrect strategy.

Whenever a player is making an incorrect call, you profit, the more incorrect, the more profit. As Ulysses said you are giving him a free card and a shot at your whole stack.

Push the turn, hope he calls. You win everything 3 out of 4 times. But if you lose, you do it again next time, and again, and again. Hammer him until you take his stack.

You have set yourself up for the worst (and yes, fishy) play in poker, losing the most when behind and winning the least when ahead.

[DcifrThs]

don't play NL.

that being said, why bet so little on the flop...you have a vulnerable hand that is CLEARLY best at this point...bet MORE than the pot and take it down or make them WAY wrong to call. then you CHECK the turn b/c you're afraid of a crappy two pair?

i'm sure eveybody in this thread probably said something to this effect but its nuts to have the best hand...KNOW you have the best hand, and STILL check through b/c you don't want to lose $$ to a fish. i'd move in on the turn or at least overbet the pot just like you should have overbet the pot on the flop.

youre thought process here is horendously flawed...this "ev" thing you brush aside is THE REASON there are winning players and losing players. if you don't put money in on the turn you're giving him INFINITE odds to beat you.

bet big on the flop...BIG, $10 rather than $5...more than whats in the pot. maybe slightly less than the pot on the turn. but to not bet b/c you don't want the fish to catch something is ludacris.

craziness i tell you, craziness!!
-Barron

[BigBiceps]

raise more preflop.

bet more on the flop.

go all-in on the turn.

... if you were asking for advice.

[natedogg]

Sharingan : The great NL HE players are great because they have the balls to play.

Yes, but it doesn't even take any balls to move in against a draw when he's got only one card to come. That's elementary. If you're not willing to do that, you should not be gambling at all. Go buy some bonds.

TAFKAn

[NotAClue]

I have started playing NL only recently (~2500 hands in PT) so I know the trepidation of getting sucked out on. That being said, you might as well have folded your QQ on the flop against this opponent. If it's a rainbow board he's not going to call your bet, so there's little point in betting. On the other hand, with a two-tone board you're playing too passively to make any money off it. If you're philosophy is why risk any more money against an opponent who's a 5:1 underdog on the turn, why risk that $5 on the flop?

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
As to how do I know he's a fish, (just call ME a fish next time instead of putting it in quotes) I saw him for over an hour make obviously wrong calls (calling an all-in w/ 2 pair and 4 flush on board after the TURN w/ 4 players). He also chased countless pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
But, I've been there, and I know how it is. I remember years ago when I started playing 7stud in the casino, I remember checking my two pair hands to the river because they're all just going to draw to their flushes anyway, so why give them my money. Obviously, this is incorrect strategy.

(snip)

Push the turn, hope he calls. You win everything 3 out of 4 times. But if you lose, you do it again next time, and again, and again. Hammer him until you take his stack.


[/ QUOTE ]

The key thing is to attack drawing hands at the weakest point of their draw. In hold'em on the turn,In 7stud on 5/6th street, in Draw/Lowball in the Predraw betting.

Except in Omaha, and to a smaller extent in stud, drawing contests are very lopsided. The Made hand is a big favorite to win the hand.

In hold'em a drawing hand has 2 shots at completion. If they don't make it on the turn, then they are 4-1 Against with one card to come. The turn is the time to get the money in, they have to improve to win, you don't.

What you want to avoid is getting all the money in on the flop. Because that gives the draw the most value for his money, even though he is not favored to win the hand. If he makes on the turn, you pass, if he misses, you shove all in. Now the draw is getting the minimum value for his draw.

The solution to swings in NL is that you have alot of cash in reserve and don't put all of it on the table all at once. And you must accept that sometimes you will lose a hand and thats going to be expensive.

I used to play alot of PL Draw Hi. One time I had 9999x, and the other person had 4567(h), I raised 3/4th of the pot predraw. After the draw all the money went in, and I lost $80, which had taken me about 6 hours to accumulate in a 25/50cent PL Draw game. He hit a 2 outer to win. But I would gladly do it over again. Win between $14 to $28 40 times, lose $80 twice.

[Macedon]

Zeero3,

I wonder...how do you feel about Bluffing? Do you ever throw in money when you feel like you can muscle-out your opponent? From reading your post, I would guess that you rarely bluff.

Your comments and your play style (on that one hand) leads one to believe that you play Tight-Passive. Your opponent, from what you've described of him, appears to play Loose-Passive.

The obvious change you need to make is to lose the Passivity and become more Aggressive. Not only should you put your opponents into a position of making an incorrect call [to your bets], but you should also work towards building up a reputation of strength; that is, you want those Loose-Passive/Aggressive players to fear you.

If you do, it is a win-win situation for you---you beat them when you have good cards (Pocket Queens), and you chase them out when you have mere overcards.

[josie_wales]

Hi zeero, and welcome to 2+2,

Preflop: Not bad, but perhaps $2.50 or a $3 raise would be in order.

Flop: You almost certainly have the best hand here, and yet you under bet the pot on a board that is showing draws for many hands. OESD, flush draws, gut shots or even TP with a chance at trips or two pair.

You need to bet a bit larger on the flop. $10-$12 should do the trick.

Your bet of $5 dollars does this: puts $14 in the pot and makes someone call a $5 getting nearly 3-1 odds. Many players will take those odds on a flush/str8 draw --- regardless of if it is correct or not.

For the size of the game, you should be happy to take it down now. AND happy if someone incorrectly calls your over-bet of the pot. BET LARGER.

TURN: Checking is Catastrophic. Horrific. You CANNOT give a free card. You are giving him literally infinite odds at his draw. You need to again bet large, as the only hands that beat you are 4-6/6-9/7-8(not likely)or 9T (possible).

Again bet out pot-sized to pot+ sized.

RIVER: The play of the hand up to this point puts you in this position -- a horrible one. There are now many more hands that beat you. However, giving your play, I doubt the player would check a winning hand in this position since you havent even been betting.

However, I cannot see any lesser hand calling you. Perhaps a pair of Jacks. Id value bet the river.

Josie Wales

[zeero3]

I agree with you 100% here IN LIVE GAMES. In Party Poker I find being passive until the time is right is when the money comes: pure nuts and close to it. In live games/tournaments, being aggressive is extremely important, but it just doesn't cut it on PP. I am solely in it to build a profit: slowly but as SURELY as possible. I was not about to push the stack on a guy I KNOW is a fish--it would hurt my wallet as well as my head....

I just find it more profitable to play slightly more passive online than in live games.... I have ALL DAY if I so choose online to make a big move.

[zeero3]

You do know where I'm coming from and thanks for the post. You're right that I made the wrong check on the turn and riv, but I am more focused on winning the more definite pot than losing the one I WAS winning because it may be too hard to let go after the hit.

[zeero3]

I never cry, I do like Teddy Pendergrass says: "Think I betta let it go"

[Prevaricator]

Don't check the turn if you know you're ahead. If you let chasers see a free river, you are giving them odds to beat you.