River with four flush on board

[StellarWind]

The river situation in this deal comes up from time to time. Anyone do anything other than check-call here?

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
MP2 is a normal/passive who multitables and is probably not too bad. We've played over 150 hands against each other recently, so if he pays attention he knows my general style.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

River: (6.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 6.25 BB, between MP2 and Hero.</font>

[sfer]

Unless the villain is an uber-calling-station--i.e. they will fold reasonable amount--, I've changed my SOP to bet/fold to a raise where I used to check/call out of position heads-up. Here especially I like that line since you might get an Ace to fold.

[StellarWind]

I think it is very unlikely that he will fold an ace. If he called preflop and flop with A-something he is not going to let go of it now for one bet. It must be terribly obvious that I could be stranded without a spade. Folding is not the way most people play, even if it were correct. But it's not correct, it's terrible. I think he's a decent player who quite likely knows that I am the type who will often have an underpair in this situation.

[Thomsen]

why didnt he bet the river then ? He is the one with the underpair hoping desperately that you have nothing but you do. Dont think you should bet the river. Check and sometimes even check fold it...

[StellarWind]

He's passive. He won't bet the river for value without a decent spade. However some players of his style will bluff. I don't know about this one.

[StellarWind]

MP2 had TT no spade. MHIG.

[sfer]

If this is your read (he bets only with a flush and calls even with a non-flush Ace) then check/folding is clearly the right move.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 is a normal/passive who multitables and is probably not too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what this means, since normal/passives usually are not very good players.



[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

River: (6.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's try to think about what MP2 could be holding. If he is a multitabling, somewhat passive ABC player, then I would imagine that hands with which he could coldcall an EP raiser would include mid-high pairs like 55-TT (hoping for both a few more callers and a flopped set), and the suited Broadway cards AQs/KQs. I assume that he would have three-bet with JJ/QQ/KK/AA/AK.

Furthermore, if he has any suited combo, you hand is likely good, since if he hit his flush it came on the turn, where he would have likely raised.

The problem with check-calling the river is that he probably will not bet unless he has the flush (especially given your description of him as passive), since he has to believe that you may well call with your AQ/AK/PP in order to try to snap off a bluff. However, betting out doesn't feel right either, since he should know that as a preflop raiser you likely can beat his non-flush underpair. Indeed, I don't imagine him calling this river with many losers like red nines.

Consequently, although I often will bet out HU on a four-flush river without a flush, I think that in this case check-folding is the best play.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP2 is a normal/passive who multitables and is probably not too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what this means, since normal/passives usually are not very good players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Players of any style are usually not very good. Most players are not very good. Within the limitations of his style, I expect this player to be sensible most of the time.

Moderate tight-passives are an important part of the Paradise 2/4 landscape. Many of them play reasonably and need to be respected. This player is similar but plays a few too many hands, both before and after the flop.

I agree with most of your analysis of the hand. Some of your assumed 3-bets are possible cold calls for this type of player.

The big advantage of betting is that an underpair will probably call. Thus I almost certainly lost a bet on the actual deal. The big drawback of betting is that there is a good chance he has a nonflush ace that he would check through. This is actually a reasonable play on his part as he needs to be concerned that I have a bigger ace.

I am very reluctant to check-fold this river even though I suspect it is +EV to do so. First, I am really not sure he wouldn't bluff. Some of the tight-passives will bluff if you provoke them badly enough so the fold is not completely without risk. The real problem is negative advertising. A lot of people take shots in this game. That is one of the real differences I've noticed from 1/2. I don't need to encourage people in such a flagrant way. I might soon give back the partial BB this "good fold" saves me.

Thanks for your input.