Underpair, LAG opponent

[Nate tha' Great]

I'm sorry to post such a simple-seeming question; it seems that I've run into a lot of these situations lately.

The player on the Button is a horrible, laggish opponent (50% flops seen, 15% PFR) who will push his good hands, his draws, and his bluffs with the same degree of ferocity. Note that I *do* think that he'd raise the flop with an ace if he had one. However, he'd almost assuredly slowplay a 7.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Nate Tha' Great is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Nate Tha' Great raises</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Nate Tha' Great bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>

What is your plan for the rest of the hand?

If the flop were 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, how might your plan differ?

[James282]

Hey Nate, if he is very unpredictable there is an easy way to combat him without spraying chips - but it takes some opponent specific assessment. Right now there are 5 BB in the pot. It is going to cost you 2.5 BB to get to the river. Assuming he bets the turn and river even when he is behind - you will win 7 bb. So basically decide if your odds are better or worse than 7:2.5 to win without improvement and call down. Or, if you have seen him raise flush draws and raise aces preflop, then three bet him and slow down only if the flush gets there. The problem with situations like this is that optimal play is often very opponent specific.
-James

[stripsqueez]

i take it there was a decent chance he would raise pre-flop with an A - a combination of he didnt raise pre-flop, he hasnt got a 7, and he didnt slowplay the flop if he does have an A makes the bluff a reasonable chance against some opponents - hard to be more precise unless i'm sitting at the table but i think calling him down is ok (maybe i play too much short handed ?)

as for taking a heart away i think it makes it better to fold - with 2 hearts its an extra draw for him to bluff and an extra draw for me to hit

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Nate, if he is very unpredictable there is an easy way to combat him without spraying chips - but it takes some opponent specific assessment. Right now there are 5 BB in the pot. It is going to cost you 2.5 BB to get to the river. Assuming he bets the turn and river even when he is behind - you will win 7 bb. So basically decide if your odds are better or worse than 7:2.5 to win without improvement and call down. Or, if you have seen him raise flush draws and raise aces preflop, then three bet him and slow down only if the flush gets there. The problem with situations like this is that optimal play is often very opponent specific.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think one reason why I've been feeling confused in this spot lately is because I know most of my most frequent shorhanded opponents pretty well, but don't know as much about the full table regulars (that said, this guy was obviously a donkey....)

In terms of 3-betting versus folding ...

Clearly, if he's on a flush draw, the best line is to 3-bet and to bet into him again on the turn ... if he's bluffing (or betting with a pocket pair lower than J's, though I'd think he would have raised that preflop), the best line is to check-and-call the whole way. The best line if he's got me beat is to fold, but checking-and-calling would be better than putting additional bets in myself.

Therefore, if the distribution is something like (30% bluff, 40% he has a better hande, 30% flush draw) I'm going to be better with the check-and-call line the solid majority of the time.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Nate,

Against Loose Aggro players I would call the flop, bet out on the turn so as not to chance giving any free card, and call any raise. Then I would check call the river.
I think this is usually the best way to make some $$$$ off loose aggro's. The worst way of course is folding.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Nate, if he is very unpredictable there is an easy way to combat him without spraying chips - but it takes some opponent specific assessment. Right now there are 5 BB in the pot. It is going to cost you 2.5 BB to get to the river. Assuming he bets the turn and river even when he is behind - you will win 7 bb. So basically decide if your odds are better or worse than 7:2.5 to win without improvement and call down. Or, if you have seen him raise flush draws and raise aces preflop, then three bet him and slow down only if the flush gets there. The problem with situations like this is that optimal play is often very opponent specific.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think one reason why I've been feeling confused in this spot lately is because I know most of my most frequent shorhanded opponents pretty well, but don't know as much about the full table regulars (that said, this guy was obviously a donkey....)

In terms of 3-betting versus folding ...

Clearly, if he's on a flush draw, the best line is to 3-bet and to bet into him again on the turn ... if he's bluffing (or betting with a pocket pair lower than J's, though I'd think he would have raised that preflop), the best line is to check-and-call the whole way. The best line if he's got me beat is to fold, but checking-and-calling would be better than putting additional bets in myself.

Therefore, if the distribution is something like (30% bluff, 40% he has a better hande, 30% flush draw) I'm going to be better with the check-and-call line the solid majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right here, but don't forget to bet the river a lot of the time!

[bobgreen]

I see value in betting the turn to make the flush draw pay. What value is there in betting the river?

[bobgreen]

I'd call the flop, sniff for clues before betting or checking the turn. I'd check the river.
Don't overlook the slight chance of spiking a J or running hearts. If you knew he had you beat, you wouldn't call, but since you are guessing, you can give a little value to your suckout hopes.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
I see value in betting the turn to make the flush draw pay. What value is there in betting the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll be calling his river bet, so betting out has value for the times he has a smaller pocket pair, the times he folds and doesn't get to see your hand. It also prevents people from making to many 'betting/raising the turn to get a free showdown' moves.

[Steve Giufre]

I think if you decide you want to see his hand, your best option check calling mostly for reasons you have already stated. Since he is loose aggresive, is he does have a flush draw, he will bet it for you anyway, so you don't need to three bet the flop and lead at the turn. The important thing is, by just calling, you encourage to keep pushing when he has not flopped a reasonable draw, and is just on a straight steal. If you 3 bet and lead at it, he will likely fold those hands.

However, the fact that you have Jacks, and not Kings, does change things a bit. It's possible that you are ahead, but he also holds one or more overcards to your pair. But I wouldnt worry too much about that here. Unless he habit of limping with big hands, you can probably rule out two overs to your pair, so I dont think you risk too much by checking the turn, even when he does take a free card when you are ahead. As for the river, you need to check and call. There is a better chance he will bet a worse hand on the end, then there is that he will call a bet with one, given your description of him.