A9o on the button in a limpfest

[adanthar]

This table has tended to be of the usual 3/6 'raise with two coldcalls' variety. Then came this hand:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $3.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB checks.

<font color="red">Okay, the entire table limped in. I'd raise this for value, but do I really want eight people to have the odds to draw on whatever flops? Probably not. Hmm...limp or fold?</font>

Flop: (7.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

<font color="red">The minute I saw this flop, I was praying for the flush draw to check raise it so most of the field would actually fold...but the CR came from the BB. Do I 3 bet here or call down?</font>

Turn: (5.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.66 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

<font color="red">Do I fold if he CR's?</font>

Final Pot: 9.66 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows 8h 8d (one pair, eights).
Hero shows 9s Ac (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.66 BB. </font>

[bernie]

Preflop..

This is about as low an offsuit A as i go here. No, i wouldnt raise here either. I want to see the flop cheap as possible with all these players. For instance, why give a possible pocket pair great odds? He'd like a raise preflop.

Flop.

[ QUOTE ]
I was praying for the flush draw to check raise it so most of the field would actually fold...but the CR came from the BB. Do I 3 bet here or call down?


[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with where the c/r came from? This is perfect for you. Isnt this what you were hoping for? Maybe i read it wrong. Im 3 betting this flop. Or stopping and raising the turn.

Were you hoping the draw would bet out earlier so you could raise it? Hoping he may then 3 bet it to knock players out?

Turn

Raise.

River

Good bet. Id only fold here to a c/r if im sure. I wouldnt be convinced on this hand. Putting another raise on the flop or turn helps this read, btw. If he's tricky, he could c/r bluff a missed draw if he thinks you might lay down. (player dependent)

b

[adanthar]

Yeah, I normally muck this PF but figured with the eight callers it was worth it on the button.

Had UTG raised it, it'd have been a clear 3 bet (and if someone else bet it, it'd be a clear raise.) But since the BB did it, 2 pair etc. is a distinct possibility. Once it's back to me and we're heads up, my thought was basically 'what does he call down with, other than TP weak kicker, that I beat, and what do I do if he caps it since I want to see a showdown?'

But yeah, I should probably find a raise here somewhere. I don't like calling the turn as much as I did when I played the hand.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I normally muck this PF but figured with the eight callers it was worth it on the button

[/ QUOTE ]

You can also play this if there are weak players limping in front of you. Players who might play any ace or any 2 suited etc...

b

[lil']

Pre-flop I would limp too if players are entering with the junk they usually limp with.

I would 3 bet the flop here. Everyone folded, and there is a great possibility you are ahead. BB could be raising a wide variety of things here.

After that I continue betting until I meet some resistance.

[Thomsen]

What will you do if raised on the turn by unknown ?

[lil']

I'd probably muck. This is assuming I showed strength with a flop 3 bet.

[PokerNoob]

How much should we want to go to showdown with top pair top kicker after it's headsup on the flop? If we want to show it down, don't we want to adopt a win the most, lose the least betting strategy? Just about like hero played it?

[lil']

Two things

1) You are going to be ahead the majority of the time on the flop in this spot.
2) Given this, I'd rather get more money in the pot with the best of it, rather than cehck and call while my opponent draws to whatever the hell he is drawing to.

You get more money that way.

On the rare occasions you are behind with a board like this, usually your opponent will let you know somewhere along the line. He very likely has some piece of the flop, but chances are excellent it isn't as big of a piece as our hero has at that point in time.

I guess what I'm saying is "getting to showdown" isn't my goal here. Winning the most when I'm ahead and losing the least when I know I am beaten is my goal.

[PokerNoob]

I don't really think he's drawing though. He's protecting a made hand of some sort. Whether that beats TPTK is up for debate. He could have an overpair like TT or maybe JJ. He could have a set. He could have a crappy two pair since he got a free look. On the other hand, he could have 88, 66, or an even lower pair. I've seen this move made with 22, but not often. On the third hand, he could have top pair and some other kicker. I think there is reasonable doubt to whether we're ahead or behind, and whomever is ahead or behind is likely to stay that way. Just by counting the number of different hands, I think we're probably slightly ahead. Plus I think we have more effective outs than he has, since the board pairing may help us and an ace will help us when he has top two or top and bottom.

The thing I missed in my previous analysis is that the pot is big. We should try to win it now, and not worry about milking bets out of him when we're ahead. Reraise the flop. He may still call down with a worse hand. Turn and river call or bet if checked to.

[lil']

He could have an overpair like TT or maybe JJ. He could have a set. He could have a crappy two pair since he got a free look.
You're worrying too much here. The majority of the time, our hero is in the lead, sometimes comfortably so.

And much of the time you will get called down by the second best hand.